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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #2931
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    So there is not even the faintest trace that would link the explosion of the Slavic paternal lines from the first half of the first millennium to the middle Dnieper. For a change, we see a clear connection with the expansion of Przeworsk culture and, perhaps, Wielbark culture. The suspicion therefore arises that in the later stages of this cultures, the local Slavic men replaced the Germanic elites, but did not change the cremation funeral rite.
    I see similar patterns in many permanently settled Slavic areas, like Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Russia. Small military groups like Huns, Goths, Avars, came and played some political role for some time and then disappeared, got chased away without a trace.

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  3. #2932
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    About Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures in Poland...

    "The results are intended to supplement the existing morphological and genetic analyses supporting the continuity of settlement from the Roman Iron Age (represented by the Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures) to medieval times within the territory of present-day Poland. Females from Przeworsk culture populations are distinct according to craniometric traits from Medieval [Slavic] groups, while in males this differences are not found. It could be a result of males’ migration. In a case of males, Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures groups had similar impact on the Medieval [Slavic] populations gene pool. Females from Wielbark Culture became biological core of Medieval [Slavic] groups. Morfological distinction of Early Modern populations could be explained by migrations and historical and social factors."

    And about Chernyakhov culture in Ukraine...

    "The archaeological research of the Chernyakhiv culture’s cemetery near village Popivka (Lipovetsky district, Vinnytsia region) was carried in 2017. Authors of excavation were O. V. Petrauskas and M. O. Avramenko. 22 inhumations were examined. Anthropological material was studied according to the different programs in the Laboratory of the Institute of Archaeology of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. A small series of skulls can be attributed as belonging to the European race. Female skulls of this group are larger and more massive than male skulls. This situation can occur when men and women in a group have origins in different populations. Another explanations may be that more massive men from this population took part in military campaigns and were buried in foreign lands. The group of female skulls is more representative. It allows to craniologist to get more information. Female series is homogeneous. It belongs to North Caucasians. It characterizes by a long, dolichocranial skull, medium-wide (with tendencies to broad) face. Face is sharp profile at a horizontal area. Nose is narrow and sharp. Women may have been genetically related or descended from populations for which dolichocrania is typical. Anthropological parallels of the Popivka cemetery’s women skulls were found in the forest-steppe zone cemeteries of the right bank of Dnieper river (Maslove, Chernykhiv, Beluka Bugaivka). The most similarity are between women from Popivka and Maslove. Popivka series clearly indicates north-western direction of anthropological links. This direction is confirmed by statistic analysis. Women from Popivka have the most similarity to women from cemeteries of Baltic region 2—5 cent. and in less degree to the Przeworsk culture of Poland."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-04-2021 at 08:46 AM.

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  5. #2933
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    I see similar patterns in many permanently settled Slavic areas, like Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Russia. Small military groups like Huns, Goths, Avars, came and played some political role for some time and then disappeared, got chased away without a trace.
    They were not small, but they occupied the same ecological and social niche quite often and migrated as a whole people if moving out. Many of the peasantry outside the central and prime lands for pastoralism and sometimes even farming on the other hand were just used for tributes and later taxes and not seen as direct competitors, so they were left alone more often after the new conquest.
    The Germanics occupied mostly such central regions and left as a group, with some exceptions. One of the exceptions being the defeated Gepids, which split up afterwards, with a larger portion staying behind. So their defeat and being pushed down the social ladder might have led to them having more impact on the regional genetics than other Germanics, same for the Bastarnae, whatever they were exactly. The problem of the Gepids was however, that they lived exactly in the most volatile environment thinkable, and that's Pannonia, which experienced many brutal conquests and catastrophies, which shifted the whole population numerous times.
    There were also the Goths in Crimea, which survived up to modern times, in a more protected spot, to which the remnants of the local Gothic people might have retreated to:

    The existence of a Germanic dialect in Crimea is noted in a number of sources from the 9th century to the 18th century. However, only a single source provides any details of the language itself: a letter by the Flemish ambassador Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, dated 1562 and first published in 1589, gives a list of some eighty words and a song supposedly in the language.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic

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  7. #2934
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    In regard to YP263 and its subclades, I just noticed that, according to YFull, YP263 and its immediate branch or subclade, Y2912, happen to have the same TMRCA. I don't know if this is a reassessment of the TMRCAs, or if I simply never noticed this before. While I understand these are only estimates, if accurate, this indicates that Y2912 would have to likely be close descendant of YP263, like a son. So far, both of the Y2912 men trace their ancestry back to Malopolska. While this could have been a more recent migration, this close time frame may indicate the location proximity of YP263, which would make it in or near Malopolska in the time period where many of the pra-Slavic clades were exploding.


    Attachment 45876
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    "The centre of Old Slavic names is situated on the northern slope of the Carpathian Mountains, approximately between Bukovina and Krakow."


    Fig. 2. Synoptic summary of 37 distribution maps of Slavic water words (after Udolph 1979, 322 ct. 40).
    Under R-BY47851, both flagless samples responded to me. They're both Polish. One is from Malopolska, the other not sure where in Poland.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY47851/

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  9. #2935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    There were also the Goths in Crimea
    "And there is a certain region along the coast there called Dory, where Goths have lived from ancient times, those namely who had not followed Theoderic when he went into Italy, but remained there of their own accord, and even up to my day they are on terms of alliance with the Romans. And they march with the Romans against their enemies whenever the Emperor so wishes. Their number comes to three thousand, and they are both excellent soldiers and skilful tillers of the soil, and the most hospitable people in the world. The land of Dory itself lies on high ground, yet it is neither rough nor hard, but good soil and productive of the best crops. However, Emperor built no city or fortress in any part of this land, since the men of the country would not suffer themselves to be confined in any fortified places but always lived most happily in an open plain. But wherever the region seemed easily accessible to assailants, he shut off these approaches with long walls and thereby freed the Goths from fear of invasion."

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  11. #2936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    About Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures in Poland...

    "The results are intended to supplement the existing morphological and genetic analyses supporting the continuity of settlement from the Roman Iron Age (represented by the Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures) to medieval times within the territory of present-day Poland. Females from Przeworsk culture populations are distinct according to craniometric traits from Medieval [Slavic] groups, while in males this differences are not found. It could be a result of males’ migration. In a case of males, Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures groups had similar impact on the Medieval [Slavic] populations gene pool. Females from Wielbark Culture became biological core of Medieval [Slavic] groups. Morfological distinction of Early Modern populations could be explained by migrations and historical and social factors."

    And about Chernyakhov culture in Ukraine...

    "The archaeological research of the Chernyakhiv culture’s cemetery near village Popivka (Lipovetsky district, Vinnytsia region) was carried in 2017. Authors of excavation were O. V. Petrauskas and M. O. Avramenko. 22 inhumations were examined. Anthropological material was studied according to the different programs in the Laboratory of the Institute of Archaeology of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. A small series of skulls can be attributed as belonging to the European race. Female skulls of this group are larger and more massive than male skulls. This situation can occur when men and women in a group have origins in different populations. Another explanations may be that more massive men from this population took part in military campaigns and were buried in foreign lands. The group of female skulls is more representative. It allows to craniologist to get more information. Female series is homogeneous. It belongs to North Caucasians. It characterizes by a long, dolichocranial skull, medium-wide (with tendencies to broad) face. Face is sharp profile at a horizontal area. Nose is narrow and sharp. Women may have been genetically related or descended from populations for which dolichocrania is typical. Anthropological parallels of the Popivka cemetery’s women skulls were found in the forest-steppe zone cemeteries of the right bank of Dnieper river (Maslove, Chernykhiv, Beluka Bugaivka). The most similarity are between women from Popivka and Maslove. Popivka series clearly indicates north-western direction of anthropological links. This direction is confirmed by statistic analysis. Women from Popivka have the most similarity to women from cemeteries of Baltic region 2—5 cent. and in less degree to the Przeworsk culture of Poland."
    Meaning what exactly?

    That females from Wielbark Culture had the autosomal package of later medieval Slavs? In other words, females of Wielbark provided the Belarusian-Like base for later Slavic ancestry?

    If I understood that correctly, I wonder what the ancestry of Wielbark males were?

    If not R1a-M458, then what was its autosomal composition prior to the introduction of this biological core ancestry from Wielbark females?

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  13. #2937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    I wonder what the ancestry of Wielbark males were?
    Early Wielbark males in inhumation graves were Swedish-like. They didn't mix with the locals for about 200 years (between c. 100-300 AD). I suspect that isotopic data from Kowalewko will confirm that male warriors were not local, i.e. forces were periodically exchanged. Then they started to mix with the local populations living east of the Vistula and with the Black Sea steppe populations.
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-04-2021 at 11:35 AM.

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  15. #2938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    That females from Wielbark Culture had the autosomal package of later medieval Slavs?
    I think so, but let's wait and see...

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post253369

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  17. #2939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    "And there is a certain region along the coast there called Dory, where Goths have lived from ancient times, those namely who had not followed Theoderic when he went into Italy, but remained there of their own accord, and even up to my day they are on terms of alliance with the Romans. And they march with the Romans against their enemies whenever the Emperor so wishes. Their number comes to three thousand, and they are both excellent soldiers and skilful tillers of the soil, and the most hospitable people in the world. The land of Dory itself lies on high ground, yet it is neither rough nor hard, but good soil and productive of the best crops. However, Emperor built no city or fortress in any part of this land, since the men of the country would not suffer themselves to be confined in any fortified places but always lived most happily in an open plain. But wherever the region seemed easily accessible to assailants, he shut off these approaches with long walls and thereby freed the Goths from fear of invasion."
    Have modern samples been collected since they supposedly enduring until the early 18th century?

    I wonder if they will habe high I1 or something else in Crimeans.

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