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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    [/COLOR]
    Interesting how it spares the Bavarian core once more, just like E-V13, while moving deep into Allemannic lands. I know its more clear in the unweighted map, which needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but its remarkable nevertheless. Probably the Allemannnic tribes did pick up something from CEE, among which was R-M458 and E-V13. There really is a hole for both in the Bavarian core, while its low but in significant percentages in the Allemannic territories. Probably this relates to the Moravian E-V13 sample and its more Slavic-like autosomal profile. But that's of course very speculative, yet this pattern needs an explanation. I noticed it for E-V13 with a significant presence all around the Bavarian core zone, in Baden-Württemberg, Franconia, Saxony, Bohemia, Eastern Austria. But almost nothing in the old Bavarian zone. Will be interesting to see how this pans out, probably the Bavarian paternal impact was far larger and replaced in a lot of its territory much of the older paternal heritage, so creating that hole, or alterantively, Allemannic speakers acquiered it and brought it down. Both is possible.

    Also important to note how such generalised maps like those from Eupedia, while otherwise good and useful, completely miss such "regional details", even if it means a real hole in the E-V13 distribution for example.

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  3. #2922
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Interesting how it spares the Bavarian core once more, just like E-V13, while moving deep into Allemannic lands.
    Maybe someday we'll see aDNA results from burial sites such as this one...

    From "Das Gräberfeld von Mockersdorf - Frühmittelalterliche Sonderbestattungen im slawisch-fränkischen Kontaktbereich" - https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Kontaktbereich

    Google translate:
    "Conclusion
    Finally, the chronological, ethnic-cultural and historical classification of the grave field should now be discussed. Only isolated grave inventories can be used for the absolute chronological dating of the burial ground. Most of the burials have no chronologically relevant additions. A clue for the dating of the grave field is provided by the jewelry inventories with heart spiral-headed needles as they appear in graves 2 and 22 and multiple and multiple overlaid pearls from graves 2, 6 and 22. These are, according to the current state of research, in the 8th and 9th centuries Century (STEPP-UHN 1998, 40; REGELE 1995, 22). You can almost always find them in combination with the chronologically easily comprehensible mosaic eye pearls, which are missing in Mockersdorf. The headdress rings with an S-loop end, as they are also found in Mockersdorf, most likely date to the same time. In summary, it can therefore be said that the Mockersdorf burial ground was probably laid out in the second half of the 8th century. The range of finds has its dating focus in the decades around 800. There are no finds that necessarily date to the 10th century. According to the current state of the sources, an end of occupancy can probably be assumed in the first half of the 10th century. This may be related to the advanced expansion of the church's infrastructure. It is conceivable that at this point the population will begin to bury in the church cemetery of a newly founded, nearby church, perhaps a predecessor of today's parish church in Mockersdorf. Unambiguous statements on the religious beliefs of the Mockersdorf burial community are not possible. The east-west-oriented arrangement of the graves and the almost complete absence of pagan-intentional additions could indicate a Christianized population. There are no ceramic vessels or food in the graves. Burial in a burial place without a church is not to be seen as synonymous with pagan burial customs. In the early Middle Ages, whether a Christian community is buried in a church cemetery or not depends more on the availability of a nearby church (EICHERT 2010, 168; THEUNE-GROSSKOPF 1997). A pagan confession of the congregation is also conceivable. A mixture of Christian and pagan populations cannot be ruled out either. An ethnic allocation of the burials found cannot be made on the basis of the archaeological finds alone. The burials uncovered in Mockersdorf do not contain any additions that would allow the buried to interpret the question of “Slavic or German”. The devices and jewelry are internationally distributed objects that can be found in Merovingian and Franconian contexts as well as in the Slavic area bordering to the east. Theoretically, three possible interpretations can be discussed with the Slavic, Franconian or mixed-ethnic population. Written sources and place names prove a Slavic settlement in the northeast Bavarian area of ​​the early Middle Ages. The best parallels are found in the grave inventories and the grave customs of the north-east Bavarian graves in the east and south-east bordering Slavic areas, from Bohemia through the Austrian Danube region to Slovenia. These points speak for a Slavic settlement in the northeast Bavarian area of ​​the early Middle Ages. On the other hand, there is the thesis of a purely German-Franconian settlement of the area without any noteworthy, independent Slavic portion (e.g. HABERSTROH J. 2000). Furthermore, a mixed population of Slavic and Germanic-Franconian parts can also be considered for the work area. After the collapse of the Thuringian Empire, at least a sparse, residual settlement of the area by the autochthonous population must be expected. Slavic population groups immigrated to this area in the period that followed. In the course of the Franconian state expansion, Franconian-Bavarian groups can also be expected to settle in the area. In summary, the mixed population thesis is to be favored for the area. Archeology can hardly determine which ethnic self-image the individual people buried in Mockersdorf had during their lifetime. It can be said, however, that the burial and burial customs are very similar to those from the neighboring regions, which are definitely Slavic. In the core area of ​​the Franconian Empire, on the other hand, the graves are usually without gifts at this time."

    Mockersdorf is located between Bayeruth and Weiden, in the area with many Slavic place names.

    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-03-2021 at 01:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Maybe someday we'll see aDNA results from burial sites such as this one...

    From "Das Gräberfeld von Mockersdorf - Frühmittelalterliche Sonderbestattungen im slawisch-fränkischen Kontaktbereich" - https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Kontaktbereich

    Google translate:
    "Conclusion
    Finally, the chronological, ethnic-cultural and historical classification of the grave field should now be discussed. Only isolated grave inventories can be used for the absolute chronological dating of the burial ground. Most of the burials have no chronologically relevant additions. A clue for the dating of the grave field is provided by the jewelry inventories with heart spiral-headed needles as they appear in graves 2 and 22 and multiple and multiple overlaid pearls from graves 2, 6 and 22. These are, according to the current state of research, in the 8th and 9th centuries Century (STEPP-UHN 1998, 40; REGELE 1995, 22). You can almost always find them in combination with the chronologically easily comprehensible mosaic eye pearls, which are missing in Mockersdorf. The headdress rings with an S-loop end, as they are also found in Mockersdorf, most likely date to the same time. In summary, it can therefore be said that the Mockersdorf burial ground was probably laid out in the second half of the 8th century. The range of finds has its dating focus in the decades around 800. There are no finds that necessarily date to the 10th century. According to the current state of the sources, an end of occupancy can probably be assumed in the first half of the 10th century. This may be related to the advanced expansion of the church's infrastructure. It is conceivable that at this point the population will begin to bury in the church cemetery of a newly founded, nearby church, perhaps a predecessor of today's parish church in Mockersdorf. Unambiguous statements on the religious beliefs of the Mockersdorf burial community are not possible. The east-west-oriented arrangement of the graves and the almost complete absence of pagan-intentional additions could indicate a Christianized population. There are no ceramic vessels or food in the graves. Burial in a burial place without a church is not to be seen as synonymous with pagan burial customs. In the early Middle Ages, whether a Christian community is buried in a church cemetery or not depends more on the availability of a nearby church (EICHERT 2010, 168; THEUNE-GROSSKOPF 1997). A pagan confession of the congregation is also conceivable. A mixture of Christian and pagan populations cannot be ruled out either. An ethnic allocation of the burials found cannot be made on the basis of the archaeological finds alone. The burials uncovered in Mockersdorf do not contain any additions that would allow the buried to interpret the question of “Slavic or German”. The devices and jewelry are internationally distributed objects that can be found in Merovingian and Franconian contexts as well as in the Slavic area bordering to the east. Theoretically, three possible interpretations can be discussed with the Slavic, Franconian or mixed-ethnic population. Written sources and place names prove a Slavic settlement in the northeast Bavarian area of ​​the early Middle Ages. The best parallels are found in the grave inventories and the grave customs of the north-east Bavarian graves in the east and south-east bordering Slavic areas, from Bohemia through the Austrian Danube region to Slovenia. These points speak for a Slavic settlement in the northeast Bavarian area of ​​the early Middle Ages. On the other hand, there is the thesis of a purely German-Franconian settlement of the area without any noteworthy, independent Slavic portion (e.g. HABERSTROH J. 2000). Furthermore, a mixed population of Slavic and Germanic-Franconian parts can also be considered for the work area. After the collapse of the Thuringian Empire, at least a sparse, residual settlement of the area by the autochthonous population must be expected. Slavic population groups immigrated to this area in the period that followed. In the course of the Franconian state expansion, Franconian-Bavarian groups can also be expected to settle in the area. In summary, the mixed population thesis is to be favored for the area. Archeology can hardly determine which ethnic self-image the individual people buried in Mockersdorf had during their lifetime. It can be said, however, that the burial and burial customs are very similar to those from the neighboring regions, which are definitely Slavic. In the core area of ​​the Franconian Empire, on the other hand, the graves are usually without gifts at this time."

    Mockersdorf is located between Bayeruth and Weiden, in the area with many Slavic place names.

    Yes, the whole Franconian and East Thuringian area was settled by Slavs, so the explanation is easy there for the higher amount of R-M458 and E-V13, because it follows the pattern from Saxony and Bohemia, where there is more of a Slavic contribution as well. That wasn't so exceptional about the pattern, but even more astonishing to me was that much further to the West, where the historically known Slavic impact was smaller than in some traditional Bavarian areas, the frequency of both haplogroups is significantly higher. This is especially true for the Allemannic dialectal zone:

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...dartgebiet.PNG

    For E-V13 in particular you can almost draw the dialectal borderline between Allemannic and Bavarian by using the E-V13 distribution. Its of course a small minority in Allemannic speakers, but its a significant portion while being rather rare among Bavarians. The discrepancy is even more striking for some major subclades. While E-V13 can come from pre-Germanic Celtic inhabitants, the question is whether the same can be said for R-M458?

    Some are in any case more recent Slavic, like:
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP5478/

    This one has a particularly wild and at first glance more Germanic distribution:
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18892/

    Probably its also sampling bias. Baden-Württemberg is one of the best sampled areas and had very fecund and widespread migrant communities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Interesting how it spares the Bavarian core once more, just like E-V13, while moving deep into Allemannic lands. I know its more clear in the unweighted map, which needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but its remarkable nevertheless. Probably the Allemannnic tribes did pick up something from CEE, among which was R-M458 and E-V13. There really is a hole for both in the Bavarian core, while its low but in significant percentages in the Allemannic territories. Probably this relates to the Moravian E-V13 sample and its more Slavic-like autosomal profile. But that's of course very speculative, yet this pattern needs an explanation. I noticed it for E-V13 with a significant presence all around the Bavarian core zone, in Baden-Württemberg, Franconia, Saxony, Bohemia, Eastern Austria. But almost nothing in the old Bavarian zone. Will be interesting to see how this pans out, probably the Bavarian paternal impact was far larger and replaced in a lot of its territory much of the older paternal heritage, so creating that hole, or alterantively, Allemannic speakers acquiered it and brought it down. Both is possible.

    Also important to note how such generalised maps like those from Eupedia, while otherwise good and useful, completely miss such "regional details", even if it means a real hole in the E-V13 distribution for example.
    in the case of M458 this is not a scenario of picked up (by alamanni etc.) as much as an own migration/expansion of slavs (most prob. sorbs) further west

    when bonifatius established his three bishoprics 742AD/CE (Epist.50) in ...wirzaburg ...erphesfurt ...buraburg pope zacharias in 751AD/CE (Epist.87) adviced him that the slavs living on christian lands (bishoprics) should also be taxed; this clearly ref. to the slavs living in the lands of the b. würzburg as a diploma 845AD/CE (MGH 42) from king louis (the german) narrates how charlemagne ordered berowulf (b. of würzburg) to built chruches in the lands of the slavs inter Moinum et Radanziam fluvios, qui vocantur Moinwinidi et Radanzwinidi and in 889AD/CE (MGH 69) king arnulf confirms that all east-franks and slavs living in the b. of würzburg, jagstgau - radenzgau, should render the eastertax (ostarstuopha) decimam tributi quae de partibus orientalium Francorum vel de Sclavis ad fiscum dominicum annuatim persolvere solebant, quae secundum illorum linguam stiora vel ostarstuopha vocatur

    and thats exactly the area of my german ancestry M458+
    in my narrower vicinity (kocher-tauber) there are indeed five places with a windisch- prefix toponym and two sites that yield slavic ceramics, most prob. eigth century (repl. fromer alemannic cermanics), wülfingen and unterregenbach, with an examination of unterregenbach indicating a very strong affinity towards the uppermain (obermain) area

    would be awesome if these EMA sites (franconia) will ever get sampled
     
    Last edited by alexfritz; 08-03-2021 at 02:45 PM.
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PEN. 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10C.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, the whole Franconian and East Thuringian area was settled by Slavs, so the explanation is easy there for the higher amount of R-M458 and E-V13, because it follows the pattern from Saxony and Bohemia, where there is more of a Slavic contribution as well. That wasn't so exceptional about the pattern, but even more astonishing to me was that much further to the West, where the historically known Slavic impact was smaller than in some traditional Bavarian areas, the frequency of both haplogroups is significantly higher. This is especially true for the Allemannic dialectal zone:

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...dartgebiet.PNG

    For E-V13 in particular you can almost draw the dialectal borderline between Allemannic and Bavarian by using the E-V13 distribution. Its of course a small minority in Allemannic speakers, but its a significant portion while being rather rare among Bavarians. The discrepancy is even more striking for some major subclades. While E-V13 can come from pre-Germanic Celtic inhabitants, the question is whether the same can be said for R-M458?

    Some are in any case more recent Slavic, like:
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP5478/

    This one has a particularly wild and at first glance more Germanic distribution:
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18892/

    Probably its also sampling bias. Baden-Württemberg is one of the best sampled areas and had very fecund and widespread migrant communities.
    Theres also https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP446/

    The "Russian" sample is actually a Volga German minority(messaged them)

    Right now there's one Slovakian upstream to YP443*, and 2 newly added samples that have no flags. The one under analysis hasn't replied, but the other is an American with unknown origin, who claims from the little they know, its Prague in Czechia. So that's 2 YP443* that are both Czech and Slovak. The other one I'm waiting for reply.

    Recently under Y133361 which was mostly Albanians, had a Estonian who already forms a branch with another Estonian in ftdna block tree that is about 1700-1800ybp with the Albanian branch. There's also a German on the block tree that is Y133361, who is more basal, probably between 1850-1950ybp, who's ancestor is from Frankfurt in Hesse, and an unknown sample parallel to this German with no flag.

    One look at R-L1029 actually has alot of Hesse Germans in downstream basal branches., including Y18892* and downstream of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    Theres also https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP446/

    The "Russian" sample is actually a Volga German minority(messaged them)

    Right now there's one Slovakian upstream to YP443*, and 2 newly added samples that have no flags. The one under analysis hasn't replied, but the other is an American with unknown origin, who claims from the little they know, its Prague in Czechia. So that's 2 YP443* that are both Czech and Slovak. The other one I'm waiting for reply.

    Recently under Y133361 which was mostly Albanians, had a Estonian who already forms a branch with another Estonian in ftdna block tree that is about 1700-1800ybp with the Albanian branch. There's also a German on the block tree that is Y133361, who is more basal, probably between 1850-1950ybp, who's ancestor is from Frankfurt in Hesse, and an unknown sample parallel to this German with no flag.

    One look at R-L1029 actually has alot of Hesse Germans in downstream basal branches., including Y18892* and downstream of it.
    That's right, I am YP445, and we are very western; my male line comes from the Rhenish Palatinate in Germany.

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    In regard to YP263 and its subclades, I just noticed that, according to YFull, YP263 and its immediate branch or subclade, Y2912, happen to have the same TMRCA. I don't know if this is a reassessment of the TMRCAs, or if I simply never noticed this before. While I understand these are only estimates, if accurate, this indicates that Y2912 would have to likely be close descendant of YP263, like a son. So far, both of the Y2912 men trace their ancestry back to Malopolska. While this could have been a more recent migration, this close time frame may indicate the location proximity of YP263, which would make it in or near Malopolska in the time period where many of the pra-Slavic clades were exploding.


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    Last edited by leonardo; 08-03-2021 at 11:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    So far, both of the Y2912 men trace their ancestry back to Malopolska. While this could have been a more recent migration, this close time frame may indicate the location proximity of YP263, which would make it in or near Malopolska in the time period where many of the pra-Slavic clades were exploding.
    "The centre of Old Slavic names is situated on the northern slope of the Carpathian Mountains, approximately between Bukovina and Krakow."


    Fig. 2. Synoptic summary of 37 distribution maps of Slavic water words (after Udolph 1979, 322 ct. 40).

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    "Increasing human impact at ca. 2,000 cal BP coincides with the southward expansion of Gothic tribes in the first and second century AD (Stolarek et al. 2019)."
    I didn't think the Goths were migrating in to this area shortly after the start of the Common Era? I thought their migration to this area was around 200 CE?
    That's correct, around 250 AD to be precise.

    "Around the middle of the 3rd c. (phases C1b-C2), a new archaeological entity apparently took form in the barbarian territories of SE Europe, one known as the Chernyakhiv culture. The process of its emergence presumably began in the region between the middle Dniester (Дністер) and the upper reaches of the Southern Bug. A decisive role in these developments was played by people of the Wielbark culture. Artefacts found in the earliest of the grave assemblages of the Chernyakhiv culture in this region (e.g., the cemeteries at Ружичанка [Ruzhychanka], Чернелів-Руський [Cherneliv-Rus’kyi] and Косанів [Kosaniv]) date to phases C1b and C1b/C2, and greatly resemble forms known from the Wielbark culture. Next to a pronounced element of the people of the Wielbark culture which is noted at this early stage of the Chernyakhiv culture, some scholars have recognized the impact of other communities, traced to the Przeworsk culture, Scandinavia, and some other population groups identified with Late Sarmatian and Late Scythian societies.

    Both the Wielbark and the Chernyakhiv communities were bi-ritual in their burial rites, practicing inhumation and cremation, the ratio of the two varying from one region to the next. Unlike what is seen in the Przeworsk culture, male graves identified with the Gothic communities are exceedingly rarely furnished with weapons, and contain a relaltively small number of iron objects."

    --------------------

    Google translate: "Another important change was after the Scythians in the territory of Ukraine during the development of the so-called Chernyakhov culture more than 1,700 years ago. Studies of ancient DNA show that the Chernyakhov culture probably originated as a result of migration from the North [North West]. "All the individuals studied in the Chernyakhov culture are genetically significantly" western "than all the individuals in the earlier Ukrainian cultures, overlapping with the genetic variability of modern and Bronze and Iron Age Europeans," Kriiska specified

    Some time ago, when I was corresponding with a member of team analysing Wielbark culture samples, he/she replied (Google translate): "capturing the genetic drift that the studied fossil sample shares to a greater extent with the contemporary populations that would interest us most: I would expect for the Chernyakhov culture that it would be contemporary Germanic and Slavic."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-04-2021 at 06:35 AM.

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    So there is not even the faintest trace that would link the explosion of the Slavic paternal lines from the first half of the first millennium to the middle Dnieper. For a change, we see a clear connection with the expansion of Przeworsk culture and, perhaps, Wielbark culture. The suspicion therefore arises that in the later stages of this cultures, the local Slavic men replaced the Germanic elites, but did not change the cremation funeral rite.

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