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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    [/B]
    Is it possible that these groups are tied to the oksywie culture? With the Ukrainian connection being explained by later Gothic migrations? Chernyakhov culture might have played a role in the formation of Kiev culture.
    I'm not really sure, only aDNA can give answers.
    As I said earlier, I believe they were tied to the region of North-Central Europe.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  3. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    "Expansion of Slavic languages took place in an area already occupied by speakers of the Baltic languages [49,50]. Despite significant linguistic divergence between extant East Baltic and Slavic languages (Fig 1) [7], Baltic populations are genetically the closest to East Slavs (Fig 2A and 2B, Table K in S1 File) [45,64–66] and here we found that they bear the highest number of shared IBD segments with the combined group of East-West Slavs (Fig 4, Table G in S1 File). The presence of a substantial “Baltic substratum” in the genomes of extant Slavs within East Europe might in part explain their genetic closeness to each other and difference from some neighboring non-Slavic groups".
    Google translate:

    Scientists are trying to unravel the mystery of medieval Masovian cemeteries



    (...)

    Another concept is that these are the necropolises of the Balts, who were Slavicized over time. Some researchers believe that the Ruthenian people may have been buried there, because similar graves are known from the area of ​​Belarus and Russia. "Although it is unclear whether they come from the same period," says the archaeologist.


    (...)

    “Cemeteries are grouped in two clusters - around Płock and Drohiczyn. Until now, it was believed that Podlaskie is younger, and Masovian - older. Our analysis shows that they are from the same period. They come from the end of the 10th century and were used until the end of the 12th / beginning of the 13th century" - says the archaeologist.



    Scientists will also use DNA analysis - it will be carried out by the team of prof. Wiesław Bogdanowicz from the Polish Academy of Sciences in Warsaw. They want to examine the haplogroups of the dead and on that basis determine where they came from. However, this is not all, because genetic tests will make it possible to determine the potential relationship of people deposited in cemeteries, and even to determine their skin, hair or eye color.

    Strontium and oxygen isotope studies will also be helpful in determining the origin. For this purpose, scientists will take samples from the teeth of the deceased. Such analyzes will provide insight into the mobility of these people, for example, whether they died at their birthplace - in the same neighborhood, or whether they came from somewhere.

    https://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualno...h-cmentarzysk#
    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-09-2021 at 03:17 PM.

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  5. #523
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    Waldemar, 100 genomes are to be tested. I am expecting my ancestors from the S18681 line.

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  7. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, 100 genomes are to be tested. I am expecting my ancestors from the S18681 line.
    http://www.historycy.org/index.php?s...post&p=1950346

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  9. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    We find evidence for the link between people (Goths) and material culture (Wielbark culture) evidenced by the close genetic relationships between Kow-OVIA and Mas-VBIA populations.

    South Scandinavia is a candidate region for the genetic ancestors of Goths represented in the populations from Kow-OVIA and Mas-VBIA, as evidenced by close genetic links of both population with the JIA.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ArNWSItiEY...iew?usp=sharing
    Google translate:
    In Maslomecz, we observe another, more than 200 years younger, stage of shaping the Gothic community, which during this period underwent profound ethno-cultural transformations in Maslomecz, remaining for over 200 years (2nd-4th century AD) a bridge for long-term migrants from north to south and in the opposite direction, which had an impact on relatives. This opposite (to the north) direction - which is also justified in the results of archaeological research - is one of the more interesting archaeological observations, confirmed in the results of the PhD student's genetic research. It is therefore highly probable that during the period of the Maslomecz group there were significant modifications not only to its ethnic and cultural composition (this was largely confirmed by the results of research on local cemeteries), but also in terms of long-distance contacts with the south of Europe. The ties of this population seem to be particularly close to the Chernyakhov culture, which arose as a result of mixing in the Pontic areas, i.e. in the Black Sea foreland, with the eastern (steppe) elements with local and northern (probably through Maslomecz) groups of this population. In subsequent generations, a part of the Gothic population undertook, as has already been mentioned, wandering from the Chernyakhov zone in the opposite direction. It is the complex nature of these processes, partially legible archaeologically, that the results obtained by MSc. Joinery. From the point of view of the wider-ethnogenetic relations in the Maslomecz region, this population should be, as the doctoral student rightly points out, definitely more heterogeneous, the number of possible components increased by steppe and south-eastern elements (Cherniakhov Culture). All this contributed to a new quality known in the literature on the subject as the phenomenon of the "Maslomecz group". In this sense, the results of genetic research create an additional and, at the same time, independent basis for inference.

    http://wwwold.ibch.poznan.pl/uploads...2020150131.pdf


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  11. #526
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    I'm not sure if you've noticed, but two Swedish Vikings (VK484 and VK486) buried in c.750 AD in Saaremaa belong to one of the ancestral branches of so-called "Pomeranian" Slavic R-L365.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP235/

    It seems that their paternal line was assimilated many generations before they were born (c. 720-730 AD?) as their auDNA results seem to be very Swedish-like.

    Swedish_Viking_750AD_EST_Saaremaa:VK484,0.125205,0 .125926,0.075047,0.065246,0.045239,0.025658,0.0018 8,0.013846,0.001023,-0.007836,-0.009419,0.004796,-0.004757,0.001376,0.017372,-0.001061,-0.020992,0.004054,-0.002263,0.001,0.009109,-0.000989,-0.004437,0.011929,0.008981
    Swedish_Viking_750AD_EST_Saaremaa:VK486,0.124067,0 .127957,0.081835,0.069445,0.044931,0.022869,0.0086 95,0.013846,0.011658,-0.006014,-0.007307,0.002398,-0.005946,0.001514,0.014794,0.006364,-0.005867,-0.001394,0.01257,0.009379,0.010357,0.003586,-0.000493,0.009278,0.005389

    Distance to: Swedish_Viking_750AD_EST_Saaremaa:VK484
    0.02738707 Swedish
    0.02826548 Icelandic
    0.03143389 Danish
    0.03606675 Norwegian

    Distance to: Swedish_Viking_750AD_EST_Saaremaa:VK486
    0.02587634 Swedish
    0.03329569 Danish
    0.03335378 Icelandic
    0.03676948 Norwegian





    Apparently we'll see some R-Z280 in Maslomecz "Just to heat up an atmosphere a bit: there are going to be many more results coming from the Goths in what is now Poland including also R1a-Z284 and at least two Z280s but samples are predominantly I1 so far (mostly under S2077 with one L22). I can't say when it becomes public though."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-10-2021 at 08:16 AM.

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  13. #527
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    Waldemar, we know that Michał is fascinated by the Slavic origin of the Belarusian branches of R1a, but Balanowski writes about them like this:

    "...in the end, it turns out that the advantage of R1a in the East Slavs is not at all "Proto-Slavic", but inherited by the Slavs from that pre-Slavic population of the East European Plain, which passed into the Slavic languages ​​and was assimilated by the Slavs during their rapid and widespread settlement throughout Europe. Of course, some elements of the "Proto-Slavs" from which this language is derived are also present in modern Slavs, and some branches of the same haplogroup Y R1a may even partially mark this "Proto-Slavic" component - we still have to study it. But in any case, this element is small. And most of the ancestors of modern Slavs - carriers of R1a - were not Slavs at all one and a half thousand years ago, but some spoke Baltic, some Finno-Ugric, and some of the Turkic languages ​​that prevailed in the Eastern European Plain at that time".

    East European Plain:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_E...n_Lowlands.svg

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  15. #528
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    Its good to see more evidence for the East Germanic backflow, which brought elements of the advanced second Latenisation back to other Germanic territories, including Scandinavia and in some areas led to the spread of Germanic itself. I'm pretty sure at some point they will find East Germanic elite warriors with retinue which moved to Scandinavia. These backflow events might in part be responsible for the low level of more Eastern and South Eastern shifted uniparentals indeed.
    So what we see might not just be "retreating", but something close to a conquest too in some instances. I would compare it with elite warriors in Viking-Medieval times, which, often together with whole warbands, moved South to "make a name and a fortune" in foreign lands. Some stayed, but others moved back, even with better equipment, more wealth, higher status, and oftentimes including new wives, but also new allies and subordinates warriors from the foreign lands. When they came back, they had a higher position, often a position of power which was unusual in their original homelands before. And I think this is what brought the "new ways" from East Germanics back to Western and especially Northern Germanics, in particular to Sweden, which was more advanced in this way than many parts of Norway, which lagged behind a big way and became part of the common Germanic development, the same stage, significantly later.

    Also, the same kind of networks worked in both ways, so new families, clans and warbands might have come South if being called by the Southern colonising chiefs. We know this from later times very well. So some of these tribes might very well have had different clans and ancestries in the mix, depending on the time, not just because of assimilated locals or older layers, but also newcomers which came "later to the party" from the North.

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  17. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    I'm not sure if you've noticed, but two Swedish Vikings (VK484 and VK486) buried in c.750 AD in Saaremaa belong to one of the ancestral branches of so-called "Pomeranian" Slavic R-L365.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP235/

    It seems that their paternal line was assimilated many generations before they were born (c. 720-730 AD?) as their auDNA results seem to be very Swedish-like.




    Distance to: Swedish_Viking_750AD_EST_Saaremaa:VK484
    0.02738707 Swedish
    0.02826548 Icelandic
    0.03143389 Danish
    0.03606675 Norwegian

    Distance to: Swedish_Viking_750AD_EST_Saaremaa:VK486
    0.02587634 Swedish
    0.03329569 Danish
    0.03335378 Icelandic
    0.03676948 Norwegian





    Apparently we'll see some R-Z280 in Maslomecz "Just to heat up an atmosphere a bit: there are going to be many more results coming from the Goths in what is now Poland including also R1a-Z284 and at least two Z280s but samples are predominantly I1 so far (mostly under S2077 with one L22). I can't say when it becomes public though."
    Both have significant Baltid admixture (10-20%) so their lines are most likely from contacts with groups around the Baltic Sea.

    Distance: 2.2097% / 0.02209657
    Target: VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK486 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    48.9 Swedish
    33.1 Icelandic
    17.0 Estonian
    0.6 Cameroon_Bakoko
    0.4 Mbuti

    Distance: 2.0507% / 0.02050684
    Target: VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK484 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    75.2 Icelandic
    14.0 Finnish
    10.0 Lithuanian_PZ
    0.8 Bantu_Kenya

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  19. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, we know that Michał is fascinated by the Slavic origin of the Belarusian branches of R1a, but Balanowski writes about them like this:

    "...in the end, it turns out that the advantage of R1a in the East Slavs is not at all "Proto-Slavic", but inherited by the Slavs from that pre-Slavic population of the East European Plain, which passed into the Slavic languages ​​and was assimilated by the Slavs during their rapid and widespread settlement throughout Europe. Of course, some elements of the "Proto-Slavs" from which this language is derived are also present in modern Slavs, and some branches of the same haplogroup Y R1a may even partially mark this "Proto-Slavic" component - we still have to study it. But in any case, this element is small. And most of the ancestors of modern Slavs - carriers of R1a - were not Slavs at all one and a half thousand years ago, but some spoke Baltic, some Finno-Ugric, and some of the Turkic languages ​​that prevailed in the Eastern European Plain at that time".

    East European Plain:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_E...n_Lowlands.svg
    Without ancient DNA such kind of conclusions are almost pure speculation and likely wrong. The ancient Russian plain (east of Belarus) was for a long time richer in R1a-Z93 than R1a-Z283. There are not really many old Finno-Ugrian R1a-Z283 clades in the region which could predate Proto-Slavs and it is questionable how much the Baltoid groups in Belarus and Russia were distinguishable from Para/Proto-Slavs. In Russia it seems that much this component arrived only shortly before Slavs (Galindians) and maybe was ultimately part of the same broader phenomenon

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