Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 105

Thread: Early Tocharian split without European farmer admixture

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,213
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil

    Early Tocharian split without European farmer admixture

    Data from Xinjiang, Eastern China, 2400 years ago, Yamnaya ancestry without European farmer ancestry. Early PIE - Proto-Indo European.
    David Reich - Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past (March 3, 2021), 55'15''
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8

    Tocharian 1.jpg

    Visualizing population structure with variational autoencoders
    C J Battey, Gabrielle C Coffing, Andrew D Kern
    G3 Genes|Genomes|Genetics, Volume 11, Issue 1, January 2021, jkaa036
    https://doi.org/10.1093/g3journal/jkaa036

    Visualizing population structure with variational autoencoders 2021.jpg


    HENNING, WALTER BRUNO

    "Henning’s last and posthumously published article, “The First Indo-Europeans in History,” is also devoted to the Tokharian problem (1978, pp. 215-30). Henning traced back the history of the Central Asian “Tokharians” to the period around 2000 B.C.E. and to the Zagros mountains, from where their ancestors, the Guti and Tukri, then threatened and at times ruled over Mesopotamia. How they got from there to Central Asia and how the name Tukri became the name of the Tokharians is a story that reads like a breathtaking detective novel, but this is nevertheless a well-founded theory".
    https://iranicaonline.org/articles/henning-walter-bruno
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

  2. The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to RCO For This Useful Post:

     AlluGobi (03-10-2021),  anthrouser123 (03-17-2021),  David Bush (03-13-2021),  Hando (03-11-2021),  Helen (03-14-2021),  JMcB (03-18-2021),  Kale (03-10-2021),  Kaspias (03-14-2021),  Megalophias (03-10-2021),  michal3141 (03-11-2021),  okarinaofsteiner (03-14-2021),  parasar (03-10-2021),  pmokeefe (03-15-2021),  Tsakhur (07-15-2021),  xerxez (04-07-2021),  xKeleix (03-17-2021)

  3. #2
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,589
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Indo-Iranian/Balto-Slavic
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93

    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Data from Xinjiang, Eastern China, 2400 years ago, Yamnaya ancestry without European farmer ancestry. Early PIE - Proto-Indo European.
    David Reich - Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past (March 3, 2021), 55'15''
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8

    Tocharian 1.jpg

    Visualizing population structure with variational autoencoders
    C J Battey, Gabrielle C Coffing, Andrew D Kern
    G3 Genes|Genomes|Genetics, Volume 11, Issue 1, January 2021, jkaa036
    https://doi.org/10.1093/g3journal/jkaa036

    Visualizing population structure with variational autoencoders 2021.jpg


    HENNING, WALTER BRUNO


    https://iranicaonline.org/articles/henning-walter-bruno
    First Centum-speaking "Tocharians" of the Tarim basin historically neither called themselves or were called Tocharian by other people. It is a misnomer and historical Tocharians were Iranic nomads settling in Bactria. Second Turukkaeans or Gutians of Mesopotamia were unlikely even IEs and predate the arrival of IEs in the region. This theory is really hard to take seriously.

  4. The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     aganmu (03-11-2021),  AlluGobi (03-10-2021),  altvred (03-10-2021),  Brent.B (03-14-2021),  Hando (03-11-2021),  jdean (03-10-2021),  JoeyP37 (03-10-2021),  Kulin (03-11-2021),  MethCat (03-11-2021),  Michał (03-11-2021),  Michalis Moriopoulos (03-10-2021),  okarinaofsteiner (03-14-2021),  parastais (03-13-2021),  Pribislav (03-11-2021),  Rahuls77 (03-10-2021),  Tsakhur (07-15-2021),  whynot (03-14-2021),  xenus (03-15-2021)

  5. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    464
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y33
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-Y6938
    mtDNA (P)
    G2a

    Russian Federation Russia Tatarstan Arms Russia Mordovia Timurid
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    First Centum-speaking "Tocharians" of the Tarim basin historically neither called themselves or were called Tocharian by other people. It is a misnomer and historical Tocharians were Iranic nomads settling in Bactria.
    What really doesn't help sort these two groups is that most of the Tarim basin mummies we have genetic data about and are often presented as Tocharians in literature and media are (probably?) Andronovo derived, at least judging from their Y-DNA.

    I've noticed that in Soviet/Russian literature, there is a tendency to distinguish "True" Tocharians from "Pseudo" Tocharians, which doesn't exist in the West. Link
    Last edited by altvred; 03-10-2021 at 03:51 PM.

  6. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to altvred For This Useful Post:

     Alain (03-10-2021),  AlluGobi (03-10-2021),  Brent.B (03-14-2021),  Hando (03-11-2021),  jdean (03-10-2021),  JoeyP37 (03-10-2021),  Kulin (03-11-2021),  MethCat (03-11-2021),  Michał (03-11-2021),  Michalis Moriopoulos (03-10-2021),  parasar (03-10-2021),  Psynome (03-12-2021),  Tsakhur (07-15-2021)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,118
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Indo-europeen
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Y33 Kurgan/ CWC
    mtDNA (M)
    H76

    European Union Poland Germany Lithuania Romania Ukraine
    Most scientists reject the attempt to connect two language groups, Gutian and Tocharian, which were more than two millennia from each other.

    I'm still waiting to see if the early Tocharians had a genetic link to the Afanisevo culture before Indo-Iranians from the Bactrian region dominated, maybe there will be a surprise with some mummies
    Last edited by Alain; 03-10-2021 at 03:48 PM.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-Sarmatian.

    YourDNAPortal Calculator ancient K36

    Kivutkalns_153_Latvia_BA 22
    DA112_Hallstatt-Bylany_800BC 19
    DA191_Hungary_Scythian 12
    IA_Wielbark_Mas_5_PL 11
    BA_Hungary_RISE254 7
    IA_Wielbark_Kow_25_PL 7
    LBA_Lithuania_RISE598 7
    IA_Britain_York_6DRIF22 6
    IA_EastKazachstan_Is2 6
    CHL_Iran_I1670 2

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Alain For This Useful Post:

     altvred (03-10-2021),  CopperAxe (03-14-2021),  Hando (03-11-2021),  JoeyP37 (03-10-2021),  parasar (03-10-2021)

  9. #5
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,347

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    First Centum-speaking "Tocharians" of the Tarim basin historically neither called themselves or were called Tocharian by other people. It is a misnomer and historical Tocharians were Iranic nomads settling in Bactria. Second Turukkaeans or Gutians of Mesopotamia were unlikely even IEs and predate the arrival of IEs in the region. This theory is really hard to take seriously.
    To be clear, Reich is referring to the misnamed Tochari - the ones from China.
    The Tochari of the Greeks (Tokharoi) and Indians (Tukhar) are people of the Bactria region.

    The main confusion is due to the Yuezhi and Kushans. The latter ruled in the Tukhar region and indeed are the Tukhar of the Indian texts. So if it were the Yuezhi who later became the Tukhar/Kushan, then perhaps there is come reason to not consider it a minomer, even though the Yuezhi never called themselves Tukhar.

    "The name "Tocharian" (German Tocharisch) was proposed first by F. W. K. Müller in 1907, and a year later by the renowned pair of Tocharianists Sieg and Siegling. This name is now thought to be a misnomer, but nevertheless remains due to sheer inertia and the lack of a definitive replacement.

    The origin of the name goes back to the discovery of an Old Turkic (Uyghur) text Maitrisimit nom bitig, a translation of the Buddhist Sanskrit Maitreyasamiti-Nāṭaka. The colophon of the work states (Adams, pp. 2-3):

    "The sacred book Maitreya-samiti which the Bodhisattva guru ācārya Āryacandra, who was born in the country of Nagaradeśa, had composed in the Twγry languages out of the Indian language, and which the guru ācārya Prajńarakṣita, who was born in Il-bliq, translated from the Twγry language into the Turkish language."
    Thus a certain Āryacandra composed the original work here referred to as Maitrisimit nom bitig. This is the same name as the composer of the Indic Maitreyasamiti-Nāṭaka, so that the identification of the original text appears to be solid. Apparently this work was then translated into toxrď (Twγry), and from that translated by the present author, Prajńarakṣita, into Old Turkic (Uyghur).

    Sieg and Siegling assumed that the intermediary language, toxrď, was the language which is the subject of these lessons, and that this language toxrď is identical to Greek To'kʰaroi and Sanskrit Tukʰāra, denoting inhabitants of Bactria. In some scholarly accounts, the inhabitants of this area were known as the Indo-Scythians, and so Sieg and Siegling proposed the name Tocharisch for the language of the Indo-Scythians.

    Research and newly discovered documents have proven this identification to be untenable. The language of the Indo-Scythians is now termed Bactrian, and this language has left a number of loanwords in the languages now termed Tocharian. Tocharian, however, seems not to have left any linguistic traces in Bactrian, so these two cultures were likely never in direct contact."
    https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/tokol

  10. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     Alain (03-10-2021),  altvred (03-10-2021),  Hando (03-11-2021),  JoeyP37 (03-10-2021),  MethCat (03-11-2021),  Michał (03-11-2021),  Pribislav (03-11-2021),  RCO (03-10-2021),  Ryukendo (03-10-2021)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    657
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    He's definitely quoting Ning et al. 2019 here.

    One small problem is that those people from eastern Dzunghar basin, which isn't even the Tarim Basin and practically borders western Gansu did have European farmer ancestry, one even had R1a-z93 if I remember well.

    The bigger problem is that the Shirenzigou site has no strong connection to Tocharians anyways. The samples, clearly nomads, were also contemporary to the formation of the Tocharian city states in the Tarim Basin. The Shirenzigou site is closer in proximity to the homeland of the Yuezhi than it is to any of the Tocharian cities.

  12. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Alain (03-10-2021),  altvred (03-10-2021),  Hando (03-11-2021),  Megalophias (03-10-2021),  Michał (03-11-2021),  Michalis Moriopoulos (03-10-2021),  Pribislav (03-11-2021),  Psynome (03-12-2021)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    63
    Sex

    May Tuva be an abbreviation of Tocharoi, there are very early archaeological finds in that area. Taugast might be another cognate word.
    "The sacred book Maitreya-samiti which the Bodhisattva guru ācārya Āryacandra, who was born in the country of Nagaradeśa, had composed in the Twγry languages out of the Indian language, and which the guru ācārya Prajńarakṣita, who was born in Il-bliq, translated from the Twγry language into the Turkish language."
    Maitreya,may be the target word of “日磾”(mě dī), a Xiongnu prince of Xiutu tribe(located in the Hexi corridor of China's Gansu Province). The king of Xiutu had been worshiping a golden statue(maybe Buddha statue?), and thus “日磾”(mě dī)was given an surname “金”(gold,copper or general reference to all metals)when he was captured by the Han army and surrendered to the emperor of Han. 金日磾(pronounced very like “James” or“giant”)finally got a feudatory marquess title,as the lord of “秺” county,the word “秺” has two pronunciations,one is “dů”, the other is “chá”, if it was a foreign word, “秺” maybe actually pronounced “dů chá” as a whole, that quite resemble “Tocharoi”.
    金日磾 was tall,approximately 190 cm in the historical data. “Giant”,is still linked to the “翁仲”(wengzhong)which were huge cast metal statues produced by Qin Emperor Shihuangdi's order,prototype referenced an alien race of giant people(This might be true, now in Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region people found very curious human remains that were quite high in the bronze age,which would be 2.3 meters tall: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/2014-05...01.htm, that was indeed not false news). 金日磾 was really an entrusted minister, from then on “翁仲”(wengzhong)were such huge stone sculptures or metal statues made for escorting mausoleums of emperors in China. “翁仲” also has other names like “金狄”(jindi) or “长狄”(changdi, a real giant people in Chinese history), their pronunciations were all close to "giant".
    Another word is also very interesting, “祁连”(Qilian mountains) and “折罗漫”(Zheluoman)means “天山”(Tianshan mountains) in Chinese translation, which might also be Tocharian words, why I find that sounds very similar to "German" for abbreviation.
    Last edited by aganmu; 03-11-2021 at 08:44 AM.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to aganmu For This Useful Post:

     Hando (03-11-2021),  parasar (03-11-2021)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    63
    Sex

    “翁仲” also has other names like “金狄”(jindi) or “长狄”(changdi, a real giant people in Chinese history), their pronunciations were all close to "giant".
    There are many remains of giants in the mound tombs of North America. I used to think that they were basically fake news. Now, if you take a rethinking, it is really not without credibility. Those remains are also 7-8 feet high (2.13-2.43 meters). The tomb remains were in the same interval of Kungang tomb(http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/2014-05...01.htm). However, it seems that they were all excavated early, and the rumor has been constantly refuted by orthodox scientists. I don't know if there are any remains in the US academic places. Alas! I don’t know when the Kungang Tomb can test its DNA!

    I find a post of such matter on www.ancient-origins.net:
    13 MARCH, 2021 - 01:00 JASON AND SARAH
    The Establishment Has Already Acknowledged A Lost Race of Giants - Part 1
    One of the most controversial subjects regarding the ancient prehistoric cultures of North America concerns what we refer to as the Unique Physical Types (UPT). For the purposes of what follows,...

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to aganmu For This Useful Post:

     Hando (03-13-2021)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    63
    Sex

    Lightbulb

    The mandible of Kungang Giant mummy is very curious for its lower incisors as shown in this post:

    Qiang-people-vertically-grown-teeth.jpg
    source:Archaeologists announce Qiang people had vertically oriented teeth and longer skeletons
    I am very curious for such vertically grown lower incisors,I haven't seen such people nowadays, and I find a few such cases of ancient skeletons:

    1)most ancient till my knowledge: Xiahe mandible which may belong to a Denisovan:

    source:https://www.thoughtco.com/denisovans...f-human-171214

    2) Upper cave 101:

    source:http://www.peterbrown-palaeoanthropo...UpperCave.html

    3) The people of Jebel Sahaba:

    source:https://www.donsmaps.com/egypt1.html

    4)and this,I don't know the background of this mandible:


    I can't find original source.


    Do you have such vertically grown lower incisors? Maybe you are descendant of Giants. Hahaha

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to aganmu For This Useful Post:

     Hando (03-14-2021)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    657
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    With thanks to Korotyr I managed to figure out how to make ghosts. Well figure out is a strong word, but I made my first ghost!

    It's pretty crude, but I took the F004 Shirenzigou sample and substracted the Pazyryk_EIA (Altaic steppe Iranian) + Slab Grave ( Central Mongolia and Gobi Desert) + NW Neolithic Chinese ancestry. I noticed that this sample in particular has a strong preference for Steppe_EMBA over steppe_MLBA but wasn't sure what to make of it.

    When I substracted those ancestries I ended up with a ghost that was 50% Steppe_EMBA or Afanasievo, and the rest being a conmbination of Sarazm/Aighyrzhal and Botai/Okunev/Baikal_BA with a bit of western Chinese mixed in there. Kinda similar to those Qiemu'erqieke samples but with more of a steppe shift.

    F004 takes up about 50% ancestry of this ghost population, the rest being steppe related (Pazyryk, Slab Grave etc.).

    Not sure what to make of it myself as I just figured out how to make ghosts like 15 minutes ago, but given that I saw the number 50% (a very natural number) twice, I'm inclined to think I might be onto something. I'd say that a 50% Steppe_EMBA+ 50% ancestry from populations around the Tian Shan would be a decent candidate for the genetic profile of a Tocharian speaker. Or at the very least the genetic profile of a native of the Tarim Basin.

    What do you guys think?
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 03-14-2021 at 12:43 PM.

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Hando (03-15-2021),  pegasus (03-14-2021)

Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 223
    Last Post: 06-02-2021, 09:05 PM
  2. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-18-2021, 02:25 PM
  3. Second early farmer group.
    By wombatofthenorth in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-17-2016, 12:31 AM
  4. Gedmatch results of an Early Farmer from Anatolia
    By Piquerobi in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-08-2016, 07:24 AM
  5. Replies: 51
    Last Post: 01-30-2016, 06:33 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •