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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1491
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, Maurycy has so far examined only one burial of the Wielbark Culture from Mazovia, which turned out to be U106. Now Maurycy is examines medieval stone-encased graves.
    We find evidence for the link between people (Goths) and material culture (Wielbark culture) evidenced by the close genetic relationships between Kow-OVIA and Mas-VBIA populations.

    South Scandinavia is a candidate region for the genetic ancestors of Goths represented in the populations from Kow-OVIA and Mas-VBIA, as evidenced by close genetic links of both population with the JIA.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ArNWSItiEY...iew?usp=sharing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    The haplotype-based analysis is CHROMOPAINTER+FINESTRUCTURE which is definitely a segment-based method (not IBD, I agree with that) and not a method that relies on unlinked markers only, like PCA or IBS or qpAdm/any other tool from the ADMIXTOOLS suite. I agree that the Welsh peak is weird, but thats just the nature of segment-based methods in that a single long segment by chance can change the average for an entire population--i.e. things are very noisy, which is why people tend to use medians instead of means for segment-based methods when comparing shared affinities across populations. However the patterns when identified can still be quite robust, especially when its a broad pattern over many populations: CHROMOPAINTER+FINESTRUCTURE can, for example, show that CHG haplotype contribution is high among Europeans and peaks in N+NE Europe but Iran_N haplotype contribution is high among Middle Easterners and West Asians and peaks in the Indus Valley. The CHG-Europe connection is not something that will appear if the signal is just driven by IBS/signals loading on overall autosomal similarity detectable using unlinked markers. Here the BR2 pattern holds pretty robustly for NE European populations, won't you agree?

    I agree that the patterns in PCA are suboptimal for this (just like they are suboptimal for Native Americans) but it will still be indicative. I'm also unsure that what you said about Baltic_BA is really true (for Siberians or Balto-Slavs, that they have drifted in their own direction for so much and that there are so many samples of them that they get their own dimensions, sure, but that Baltic_BA has done this as well? There's only a few samples of them). Could you (or anyone) just try running the models I suggested? Even if the fits don't get below 5% (like they don't for Siberians, or Native Americans when using just ENA+ANE) the results may still be indicative.
    BR2 is on the high WHG end for its' population.

    a good way to test if Hungarian BA is really related to Poles would be to run a low WHG Hungary BA sample trough this same test.
    If there's still the peak in Poles, than it isn't just the admixture proportions causing it.
    Last edited by bce; 06-14-2021 at 05:47 PM.

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  5. #1493
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    Waldemar, the Scandinavians were of course in Poland in the Roman period, but the scale of their presence is best illustrated by IBD segments from the Iron Age, shared between the Poles and the Scandinavians, which I mentioned earlier.

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    Parastais, Arza wrote back like this:

    Ukraine, maybe besides areas bordering the Carpathians, rather didn't have such ancestry.

    There are 3 Scythian samples from Ukraine that fall more or less in the range of modern day Slavs and Slavic-related populations, but counting them as a source of this "Neolithic" shift is problematic, to say the least.

    For example it'd mean that Slovaks, who genetically and linguistically seem to have central position among the Slavs, have zero Proto-Slavic ancestry.

    What's even more important is what kind of ancestry Ukraine certainly did have. Ukraine was flooded with a variety of Asian admixtures, which lasted till the advent of the Chernyakhiv culture (Jarve 2019).

    https://i.postimg.cc/wqtSCtXL/Scythians.png

    Even from Moldova there are samples with a clear Asian admixture. If someone wants to see Central or Eastern Ukraine as a source of an even part of the Proto-Slavic gene-pool then we need to ask - where is the Asian admixture among the early Slavs? Where is the R1a-Z93 and uniparentals typical for Asian populations?

    Moreover, as you can see on this plot, Slavic-like Scythians from Ukraine are likely migrants from the west, as they overlap with the main cluster of Hungarian Scythians. As a cherry on top - scy009, who is a Ukrainian Scythian that is the most similar to any of the modern Slavic samples has typically West-Central European Y-DNA R-P312 and from the ancient samples it's closest to a Middle Bronze Age specimen from Hungary (HUN_Fuzesabony_MBA:I20772).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    What's even more important is what kind of ancestry Ukraine certainly did have. Ukraine was flooded with a variety of Asian admixtures, which lasted till the advent of the Chernyakhiv culture (Jarve 2019).

    https://i.postimg.cc/wqtSCtXL/Scythians.png

    Even from Moldova there are samples with a clear Asian admixture. If someone wants to see Central or Eastern Ukraine as a source of an even part of the Proto-Slavic gene-pool then we need to ask - where is the Asian admixture among the early Slavs? Where is the R1a-Z93 and uniparentals typical for Asian populations?
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post772937

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Parastais, Arza wrote back like this:

    Ukraine, maybe besides areas bordering the Carpathians, rather didn't have such ancestry.

    There are 3 Scythian samples from Ukraine that fall more or less in the range of modern day Slavs and Slavic-related populations, but counting them as a source of this "Neolithic" shift is problematic, to say the least.

    For example it'd mean that Slovaks, who genetically and linguistically seem to have central position among the Slavs, have zero Proto-Slavic ancestry.

    What's even more important is what kind of ancestry Ukraine certainly did have. Ukraine was flooded with a variety of Asian admixtures, which lasted till the advent of the Chernyakhiv culture (Jarve 2019).

    https://i.postimg.cc/wqtSCtXL/Scythians.png

    Even from Moldova there are samples with a clear Asian admixture. If someone wants to see Central or Eastern Ukraine as a source of an even part of the Proto-Slavic gene-pool then we need to ask - where is the Asian admixture among the early Slavs? Where is the R1a-Z93 and uniparentals typical for Asian populations?

    Moreover, as you can see on this plot, Slavic-like Scythians from Ukraine are likely migrants from the west, as they overlap with the main cluster of Hungarian Scythians. As a cherry on top - scy009, who is a Ukrainian Scythian that is the most similar to any of the modern Slavic samples has typically West-Central European Y-DNA R-P312 and from the ancient samples it's closest to a Middle Bronze Age specimen from Hungary (HUN_Fuzesabony_MBA:I20772).
    This is like claiming medieval Kiev and Dnieper Polans were Turkic because steppe Ukraine was populated by Pechenegs. Just because these regions are today located in one country they were not automatically part of the same ethno-cultural zone at all. North Ukraine was even untill really recently an entire different economical and cultural zone compared to steppe/forest steppe Ukraine with it Steppe populations. I dont think anyone here is claiming that Slavs orginated in the Scythian Steppes so samples from Scythia carrying Asiatic admixture not really disprove an origin of Slavs in North Ukraine/Belarus.

    Scythians showing Balto-Slavic admixture is similar to modern day Tatars showing lot of Balto-Slavic admixture but modern day East Slavs showing very low if any Tatar admixture even when living next to Tatars. The population sizes were very different and sedentary populations north of Scythia likely had a higher population number than nomadic tribes in the Steppes.

    Also it is quite absurd to claim that Scythians in Central Ukraine next to the Dnjepr got their Balto-Slavic admixture from Hungary instead of North Ukraine. None of the ancient Hungarian samples had as much as Balto-Slavic drift as these Scythians and most samples from ancient Hungary lacked any Balto-Slavic drift untill the early medieval period when Slavs finally arrived.

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  12. #1497
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Parastais, Arza wrote back like this:

    Ukraine, maybe besides areas bordering the Carpathians, rather didn't have such ancestry.

    There are 3 Scythian samples from Ukraine that fall more or less in the range of modern day Slavs and Slavic-related populations, but counting them as a source of this "Neolithic" shift is problematic, to say the least.

    For example it'd mean that Slovaks, who genetically and linguistically seem to have central position among the Slavs, have zero Proto-Slavic ancestry.

    What's even more important is what kind of ancestry Ukraine certainly did have. Ukraine was flooded with a variety of Asian admixtures, which lasted till the advent of the Chernyakhiv culture (Jarve 2019).

    https://i.postimg.cc/wqtSCtXL/Scythians.png

    Even from Moldova there are samples with a clear Asian admixture. If someone wants to see Central or Eastern Ukraine as a source of an even part of the Proto-Slavic gene-pool then we need to ask - where is the Asian admixture among the early Slavs? Where is the R1a-Z93 and uniparentals typical for Asian populations?

    Moreover, as you can see on this plot, Slavic-like Scythians from Ukraine are likely migrants from the west, as they overlap with the main cluster of Hungarian Scythians. As a cherry on top - scy009, who is a Ukrainian Scythian that is the most similar to any of the modern Slavic samples has typically West-Central European Y-DNA R-P312 and from the ancient samples it's closest to a Middle Bronze Age specimen from Hungary (HUN_Fuzesabony_MBA:I20772).
    Lots of text, but main point is Scythians Ukraine already had that EEF.
    Totally lost me at Slovaks. Why would “Euro Scythian” source of this admixture say that Slovaks have 0 Proto-Slavic. I think they can easily be modelled as Ukraine Scythian + some Baltic + whatever.

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  14. #1498
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Lots of text, but main point is Scythians Ukraine already had that EEF.
    Totally lost me at Slovaks. Why would “Euro Scythian” source of this admixture say that Slovaks have 0 Proto-Slavic. I think they can easily be modelled as Ukraine Scythian + some Baltic + whatever.
    Have to say that the relevance of Siberian admixture in Scythians to the proto-Slavic homeland debate escapes me, I also fail to see the logic in claiming Balto-Slavic ancestry of Scythians buried on the banks of the Dnieper came all the way from Central Europe rather than from somewhere further North up the Dnieper.

     



    Slovaks and other West-Slavs can be represented as a mixture of 'Baltic' and pre-Slavic Iron-Age Central Europeans; in fact, Slovaks could be modeled with just AV2, although the probability for that is lower than an admixture event occurring.

     




    Attempting to create a model of Slovak ancestry with just the pre-Slavic IA Central Europeans results in badly fitting, statistically improbable scenarios.

     


    I have two questions for people arguing for a Central European origin:

    1. There is an undeniable correlation with aDNA between the archeologically verifiable presence of Early/Medieval Slavs and the appearance of AV2-type genetic signal in the region.

    People buried in Pohansko, Krakauer Berg, Brandysek show a definite genetic shift towards AV2 when contrasted with more ancient individuals of the same area (in the case of Pohansko, the very North-Sea Germanic profile of pre-Slavic LIB2).

    If the earliest Slavs autosomally were similar to Central Europeans, how does one interpret the genetic discontinuity separating Iron-Age populations and ancient and modern Slavs?

    What rational explanation is there for the plethora of ancient genomic data available that presents a clear genetic separation between pre-Slavic and Slavic samples from the same country?


    2. If this specific genetic signal (Balto-Slavic drift, or however you want to term it) is absent in Central Europe and appears first in aDNA from central Ukraine and Lithuania (Spiginas2 is also the most ancient CTS1211), isn't the more parsimonious and logical model one that has this genetic signature move East-to-West rather than the other way around?
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    I seem to detect a strong anti-Western bias among some Russians here, that they have some sort of complex about the people who brought Slavic languages being from west of the Dnieper, or at least the male haplogroups associated with Slavic migration, especially those deemed core Slavic. Whereas you can assign the autosomal DNA, much of the R1a, the mitochondrials to the Kiev Culture, the haplogroups that are most connected with the event causing the bifurcation of Slavs from Balts, are from the west. Many Russian men are M458>L1029>YP417, and it is a very important East/Southeastern Slav male line. Upstream clades usually point to the location of the origin and its spread. Here is a tree of some basal clades of YP417, those lacking the later YP418 mutation.Screen Shot 2021-06-14 at 8.52.55 PM.png

    Slovakia, Lvov Ukraine, Brest Belarus, and the most eastern being Zhitomir, Ukraine. See a pattern? West to east! Now you can state that L1029 was not an original Slavic haplogroup, that it was in origin Gothic, Bastarnae, or Free Dacian, or maybe even Eastern Celtic. And I could do the same for I2a-Din.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I seem to detect a strong anti-Western bias among some Russians here, that they have some sort of complex about the people who brought Slavic languages being from west of the Dnieper, or at least the male haplogroups associated with Slavic migration, especially those deemed core Slavic. Whereas you can assign the autosomal DNA, much of the R1a, the mitochondrials to the Kiev Culture, the haplogroups that are most connected with the event causing the bifurcation of Slavs from Balts, are from the west. Many Russian men are M458>L1029>YP417, and it is a very important East/Southeastern Slav male line. Upstream clades usually point to the location of the origin and its spread. Here is a tree of some basal clades of YP417, those lacking the later YP418 mutation.Screen Shot 2021-06-14 at 8.52.55 PM.png

    Slovakia, Lvov Ukraine, Brest Belarus, and the most eastern being Zhitomir, Ukraine. See a pattern? West to east! Now you can state that L1029 was not an original Slavic haplogroup, that it was in origin Gothic, Bastarnae, or Free Dacian, or maybe even Eastern Celtic. And I could do the same for I2a-Din.
    Except they are not in an order there, all are same level, so is is not West to East or East to West. They are just pointing at region of Ukraine-Belarus being most probable with that one Slovakian sample keeping the Western hope alive.

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