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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Some time ago, when I was corresponding with a member of team analysing Wielbark culture samples, he/she () replied (Google translate): "capturing the genetic drift that the studied fossil sample shares to a greater extent with the contemporary populations that would interest us most: I would expect for the Chernyakhov culture that it would be contemporary Germanic and Slavic."
    I wonder to what extent the Chernyakhov culture impacted/interacted with the Kiev culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Google translate: "Another important change was after the Scythians in the territory of Ukraine during the development of the so-called Chernyakhov culture more than 1,700 years ago. Studies of ancient DNA show that the Chernyakhov culture probably originated as a result of migration from the North [North West]. "All the individuals studied in the Chernyakhov culture are genetically significantly" western "than all the individuals in the earlier Ukrainian cultures, overlapping with the genetic variability of modern and Bronze and Iron Age Europeans," Kriiska specified."

    https://novaator.err.ee/970726/tartu...skuutide-jalgi

    Please see my post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770768
    Google translate: "So who was he? According to Dr. Aleksandra Pudło, he was a warrior living in difficult and hostile conditions, taking an active part in combat, traveling thousands of kilometers on horseback, most likely from the Caucasus. The latter is indicated by the structure of the skull, which is typical of people living on the border of Europe and Western Asia (Turkey, Armenia, the Caucasus)."

    http://strefahistorii.pl/article/677...-archeozagadka

    Main directions of the Hunnic invasions in Europe; after A. Kokowski with supplements

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  5. #563
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    My wife's results (she's Polish; from Pomerania/Kociewie):
    Modern_Polish_Pomerania_Kociewie,0.126344,0.121864 ,0.07203,0.058786,0.037545,0.023148,0.013866,0.004 615,-0.000205,-0.018588,-0.004709,-0.004046,0.002973,0.010184,-0.003664,0.010607,0.022687,0.002027,0.005279,0.007 003,-0.003119,-0.00643,0.013064,0.00012,-0.001916

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    ^^^
    Do you think that the name of the sub-region Kociewie could originate from the Goths (Goci) - Gociewie ???

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    Gyddannyzc, Gociewie, etc...Who knows.

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    I think its kind of odd where Kowalewko_Goths_9 and Kowalewko_Local_Female_10 being placed. There is not that much where they could be pulled to. Its somewhat going in a WHG direction, but I added the Tollense samples and they being in the normal modern range between Germanics and Slavs from Central Europe. Its not really the perfect Uralic shift neither, though that might be what comes closest (Saami).

    Its also notable how some Welzin/Tollense guys are right where I said the "natural position" of people in between Germanics and Slavs would be, which I would have said some Eastern Urnfield related, Lusatian related people might have occupied. Probably that's not too far from the truth. But the Kowalewko female 10 is even more strange by that given context. Anything peculiar in her individual analysis? Was her coverage bad?

    PCA_Comparison.jpg

    Edit: Kowalewko_10 single with modern individuals:
    Target: Kowalewko_Local_Female:10
    Distance: 3.0053% / 0.03005251 | R4P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    42.8 Irish
    32.0 Karelian
    22.6 Danish
    2.6 Tibetan_Yajiang
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-12-2021 at 05:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think its kind of odd where Kowalewko_Goths_9 and Kowalewko_Local_Female_10 being placed. There is not that much where they could be pulled to. Its somewhat going in a WHG direction, but I added the Tollense samples and they being in the normal modern range between Germanics and Slavs from Central Europe. Its not really the perfect Uralic shift neither, though that might be what comes closest (Saami).
    This is almost certanly a Finnic (Saami-like) admixture, most likely received back in Eastern Sweden (and originally coming from SW Finland). Those Kowalewko samples 4, 9 and 10 land very close to the Germanic-like outlier from the Levšnluhta site in Western Finland:





    Of course, your model showing a strong Karelian-like admixture in the female Kowalewko_10 sample is consistent with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Its also notable how some Welzin/Tollense guys are right where I said the "natural position" of people in between Germanics and Slavs would be, which I would have said some Eastern Urnfield related, Lusatian related people might have occupied. Probably that's not too far from the truth. But the Kowalewko female 10 is even more strange by that given context. Anything peculiar in her individual analysis? Was her coverage bad?
    I know you are perfectly aware of the fact that this "natural position" of the Tollense guys between Germanics and Slavs is seen on the G25 North Europe PCA only because one important dimension is missing there, as this particular PCA was designed specifically to differentiate all modern Northern European populations, so the stress was put on those principal components that allow us to clearly discriminate between those modern populations (and, unfortunately, we lost some of the components that make the Tollense population, or its dominant subpopulation, very different from all modern populations in Central and Northern Europe). This is best seen when comparing the G25 North Europe PCA (where modern Swedes and Poles are well discriminated from each other, while Tollense people look like a kind of an "intermediate" population) and the G25 West Eurasia PCA, where no differences between the Swedes and Poles are seen, while the Tollense people seem to have a strong additional (WHG-related) admixture that makes them look very different from all modern populations living in Central and Northern Europe.






    Regarding the so-called "local" Gothic women from Kowalewko, it seems that this group is not homogenous and includes two clearly Germanic samples (4 and 10) with some extra Finnic-like admixture, and maybe also some Germanic samples with a local admixture from a population resembling the Tollense population.
    Last edited by Michał; 05-12-2021 at 07:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Some time ago, when I was corresponding with a member of team analysing Wielbark culture samples, he/she () replied (Google translate): "capturing the genetic drift that the studied fossil sample shares to a greater extent with the contemporary populations that would interest us most: I would expect for the Chernyakhov culture that it would be contemporary Germanic and Slavic."
    When the imperial greed of Rome resulted in massive aggressions and violent warfare - to conquer their neighbouring kingdoms, loot their treasures accumulated through millennia and enslave their people - the victimized kingdoms turned north for help.

    Which obviously worked, as their northern neighbours, relatives and trade-partners from the North Sea to the Urals actually started a grand-sized and co-ordinated effort to mobilize against this evil, by recruiting voluntary warriors and boost all production of raw-materials and products needed for weapons and warfare. Todays archaeologers have thus found that the production of metals, especially iron, was greatly enhanced as far north as Northern Fenno-Scandia, starting already around 25O BC to peak around the times of Caezar and Octavian, who became Augustus as Romes invincible war-machine was finally stopped in its march towards the Baltics - in the wetlands of NW Germany.

    As Augustus died the war-masters of Rome could start their conuests of "the entire world" again, which forced the kingdoms of the North Sea and the Baltics to unite towards this lethal enemy. As the Greek-Roman empire started their march across the Balkans, the native farmers of thrakian, dacian and gothic decent were - helped by their vendic (vandalian aka ouan-ian aka hunic) relatives to the north-east, as well as their 'keltic' (dano-german aka 'dacian') and gotic relatives up north.

    Using the trade-routes as highways the support of both warriors and weapons were shipped upstreams Vistula, Daugva and Dvina to reach Djepr, Dniester and Donau. Later, as the wars continued and the Romans succeeded to conquer Thrakia and the western Black Sea the kingdoms up north would mobilize their old Volga-route towarrds Don, Asov and Ounagar - from where their 'buddies' called "Budlungs" would mobilize like their collegial goths and dano-germans, to help fight the evil empire. Asked (as in 'be', aka 'bu') to assist these forces of the "venedae" were called "Budlungs" among the goths, as preserved in the norse litterature. Who called their leader 'Atli', equal to the present german/gothic male-name 'Atle'. In the latin sources called "Attila".

    Thus the co-operation and alliance between these old trade-partners - generally known from the Baltic trade-zone as "Goths" in the west and "Vends" in the east - were merged and molded by a clear and present danger to their very lives, not to speak of social values and cultural traditions.

    Since the "Glasnost" of the 199O-ies made a rational co-operation between east and west possible again, we have seen a rich growth in both trade, culture and science between their respective descendants. Thus producing an archaological co-op between univeristies of Poland, Ukraine and Russia with Germany and Scandianavia. One result being a broad analyzis and closer descriprion of the archalogical traces connecting the Baltic circumference with the Blacjk Sea - during both the Roman and the Holy Roman agressions. Duely exxploring the role of the "Gothic warriors" of from the resourceful parts of Scandianvia - first known by a specific 'warrior-cast' called 'Heruli', then broadly known as 'Ostro-Goths' and 'Visi-Goths'. Who joined the native 'Venedae' - aka "Scytians and Sarmatians" of the Black Sea, to defend themselves as well as their immdeiate, geto-thracian neighbours. (Just the same kingdoms later produced the famous "Vikings", "Vaerings" and "Kylvings" - to protect the post-roman kingdom of Bulgaria from the new and holy roman efforts to 'rule ze world'.)

    The linguistical traditions of the dacian and bulgarian farmers north of the Black Sea had clearly some old relations the 'dano-germanic' farmers north of Danube and west of Vistula. Combined with the uralian dialects of their vendic/hunic neighbours up north and east the Ostro-Gothic language formed during Roman time - between Poland and Ukraine - were obviously involved as the post-roman "lingua slava" was formed, to become what exists today as "slavic". Thus we can't project a "slavic language" to any of the native populations of the Black Sea before the collapse of the (first) Roman empire.

    As the archaeological material from the waterways connecting Crimea and Scandianvia have been properly analyzed - by numerous universities involved - the area between Vistula and Dvina, onwards to Djepr and Dniester - have been named "The Gothic Corridor". I've mentioned this a few times on this forum before, but the genetic facts able to explain these archaeological discoveries more closely have not been available before the present decade. With the present work on the genetics within this "Gothic Corridor" it may be time to review the archaeological updates: https://www.academia.edu/598890/Inte...e_Roman_Period

    EDIT: Reflist: http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_...nd+the+Balkans
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-12-2021 at 11:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    When the imperial greed of Rome resulted in massive aggressions and violent warfare - to conquer their neighbouring kingdoms, loot their treasures accumulated through millennia and enslave their people - the victimized kingdoms turned north for help.
    What you describe is what most people did in the old days, Rome did it just more successfully and even used its dominant position to spread some civilisation, which would have worked out without the corruption, decadence, moral and demographic decline. The Celts did pretty much the same before and so did their ancestors. Its also noteworthy that the Celts were crushed by Romans and Germanics, just like before the Celts and Germanics crushed the unnamed and unknown fortress, unique Hallstatt-related people in Central Germany. When the common enemy and buffer was no more, the direct contacts resulted in direct conflicts.
    The main reason for the Germanic expansion was that after the Central German groups downfall, but especially after the second Latenisation, which was the cultural gift of the dying Celtic culture to them, they experienced a time of rapid demographic expansion, just like the Slavs some centuries later. We can not just look at weaponry, but have to look at tool making too and iron tools just became much more common in the later Germanic phase, especially in comparison to the rather "poor" and more simple early Jastorf stage.
    From this new cultural development and demographic expansion came increased internal and external competition, resulting in a more elaborated and efficient warrior culture, as well as big scale movements of militarised clan and tribal units, which constantly grew in size and efficiency.

    Rome was not much worse if its about brutality and plunder, it was just different with its own ways in comparison to more tribal based cultures of their time in particular. Don't forget how the war of the Romans and Greeks with the Celts started, it was when they plundered Italia and Greece by the way.
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-12-2021 at 09:05 PM.

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