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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    In case he was predicted L540+ based on STRs alone, please let me know his STR haplotype once you get your hands on it. This is one of my ancestral subclades, so I am very interested in investigating its past.
    That Serb is from Southeastern Serbia, and he's confirmed as L540>A6295+ at YSEQ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    finding the exact origin of Slavic I2a-Y3120 is so crucial for elucidating the ethnogenesis of the Slavs.
    I think you made a typo, the sentence should be:
    “finding the exact origin of Slavic I2a-Y3120 is so crucial for elucidating the ethnogenesis of some Slavic tribes”. TMRCA of Y3120 is too late for Slavic ethnogenesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    That Serb is from Southeastern Serbia, and he's confirmed as L540>A6295+ at YSEQ.
    One of my great grandfathers was L540>A6295* (a lineage represented by sample YF03833 on the YFull tree), so there is a small chance these two lineages form a common subclade under A6295.
    Last edited by Michał; 05-08-2021 at 09:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    I think you made a typo, the sentence should be:
    “finding the exact origin of Slavic I2a-Y3120 is so crucial for elucidating the ethnogenesis of some Slavic tribes”. TMRCA of Y3120 is too late for Slavic ethnogenesis.
    No typo. The vast majority of modern linguists date Proto-Slavic to the first millenium AD, so there is no support for your fantasies about Proto-Slavic being spoken 5,000 years ago.

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  8. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    It seems there are multiple subclades under E-L540 in the West-East Slavs with TMRCA of around 2000 ybp. That makes me think these lineages couldn't have been assimilated around the Carpathians basin considering that E-L540 isn't very common outside of Northern Central Europe. The highest diversity downstream of E-L540 is found exactly in northern Central Europe and that alone gives incidence that the spreading and the diversification started around there, probably around 2000 ybp according to YFULL. Was this in the Przeworsk or Zarubintsy Culture is hard to say but I believe this lineage shows typical Slavic spread and timeframe.


    An Albanian user(Kelmendasi) was the one who spread the information about this Serb. Outside of that I have no other information. Anthrogenica is frequently visited by various Serb users and even admins of their project Poreklo so if they are willing, we can get more information from them.



    Agree and would give credit to what I said earlier about E-L540.



    Agree



    Agree although the key word here is founder effect. We don't know whether lineages such as E-L540 were part of the same population initially with I-Y3120. They very well might have been considering their similar TMRCA. It's just that I-Y3120 for some reason had more luck in having living descendants. It could be that R-L1029, I-Y3120 and E-L540 could have part of the same population around 2200 ybp. L1029 and L540 have a lot of diversity in North-Central Europe while Y3120 seem to have expanded heavily to Ukraine, perhaps in connection with the Kiev Culture.
    This is key because if we go back to the LBA and the Urnfield groups, its supposedly the South Eastern, Gáva-Holigrady and generally Channeled Ware related groups which were heavily E-V13, not the Lusatian ones to their North. However, they had contacts and influenced each other, as well as other groups.
    I think that E-L540 was one of the Lusatian groups, stayed on the North and entered both the Germanic, as well as the early Slavic communities.
    My hunch is that the bulk of the North Eastern Urnfield groups was I2, but not exclusively so, with one of the other minority groups being E1b, coming from the Urnfield exchange networks.
    And my next hunch is that part of the Slavic ethnogenesis was a partial overtake of or fusion with such North Eastern Urnfielders. Something Balts wont show.
    There is no need for this influence being distributed absolutely evenly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think that E-L540 was one of the Lusatian groups, stayed on the North and entered both the Germanic, as well as the early Slavic communities.
    If by "Early Slavic" you mean the Early Medieval expansion stage (lest's say post 400 AD) then I would agree with Aspar that the presence of L540 in Russia (two independent L540* lineages at YFull) makes it slightly more likely for subclade E-L540 to have joined the Proto-Slavic community significantly earlier (ie. before the territorial expansion directed west, south-east and north-east started).

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    And my next hunch is that part of the Slavic ethnogenesis was a partial overtake of or fusion with such North Eastern Urnfielders. Something Balts wont show.
    You should be right about the modern Balts (ie. the Eastern Balts) but not so much about the Western Balts. We need to keep in mind that the Lusatian culture was also present on the future West Baltic territory - see the so-called Warmian-Masurian group of the Lusatian culture. It is a real pity that we don't have any ancient DNA results for the Old Prussians. On the other hand, it seems that the Lusatian population was quite heterogenous and its Eastern subgroupings (mostly of Post-Trzciniec thus presumably Balto-Slavic origin) could have been much less affected (genetically) by the Lusatian migrants coming from the West (and originally from the Danubian region). Similarly, it is very hard to say (with no aDNA results available) what the genetic relationship between the Tumulus and Early Lusatian culture and the subsequent Pomeranian culture was.
    Last edited by Michał; 05-08-2021 at 11:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    No typo. The vast majority of modern linguists date Proto-Slavic to the first millenium AD, so there is no support for your fantasies about Proto-Slavic being spoken 5,000 years ago.
    It is a lie. Stop trolling, everybody can check in Wikipedia:

    Proto-Slavic is the unattested, reconstructed proto-language of all the Slavic languages. It represents Slavic speech approximately from the 2nd millennium B.C
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_language

    There are plenty of Vedic Sanskrit words and grammatical forms identical to Slavic, so it is reality, not reconstructions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Agree although the key word here is founder effect. We don't know whether lineages such as E-L540 were part of the same population initially with I-Y3120. They very well might have been considering their similar TMRCA. It's just that I-Y3120 for some reason had more luck in having living descendants. It could be that R-L1029, I-Y3120 and E-L540 could have part of the same population around 2200 ybp. L1029 and L540 have a lot of diversity in North-Central Europe while Y3120 seem to have expanded heavily to Ukraine, perhaps in connection with the Kiev Culture.

    Is it possible that these groups are tied to the oksywie culture? With the Ukrainian connection being explained by later Gothic migrations? Chernyakhov culture might have played a role in the formation of Kiev culture.
    Last edited by Brent.B; 05-08-2021 at 10:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    If by "Early Slavic" you mean the Early Medieval expansion stage (lest's say post 400 AD) then I would agree with Aspar that the presence of L540 in Russia (two independent L540* lineages at YFull) make it slightly more likely for subclade E-L540 to have joined the Proto-Slavic community significantly earlier (ie. before the territorial expansion directed west, south-east and north-east started).


    You should be right about the modern Balts (ie. the Eastern Balts) but not so much about the Western Balts. We need to keep in mind that the Lusatian culture was also present on the future West Baltic territory - see the so-called Warmian-Masurian group of the Lusatian culture. It is a real pity that we don't have any ancient DNA results for the Old Prussians. On the other hand, it seems that the Lusatian population was quite heterogenous and its Eastern subgroupings (mostly of Post-Trzciniec thus presumably Balto-Slavic origin) could have been much less affected (genetically) by the Lusatian migrants coming from the West (and originally from the Danubian region). Similarly, it is very hard to say (with no aDNA results available) what the genetic relationship between the Tumulus and Early Lusatian culture and the subsequent Pomeranian culture was.
    By the way, going by YFull and FTDNA, the only thing I can say about the Russian E1b1b is that they don't test that often, so its hard to tell what their 5 percent of it are looking like. Beside E-L540, another quite Northern looking clade, though not exclusively so, seems to be https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/

    At first look, it seems some of the main branches spread to Northern groups, especially Germanics and Celts, but also Slavs possibly. The ages are usually quite old, with no very common recent ancestors with the Balkan testers so far. Most at the usual LBA-EIA transition, some later, which might however correspond rather with North -> South migrations, but that needs to be verified and could be questioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    It is a lie. Stop trolling, everybody can check in Wikipedia:
    Proto-Slavic is the unattested, reconstructed proto-language of all the Slavic languages. It represents Slavic speech approximately from the 2nd millennium B.C
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_language
    Firstly, while Wikipedia is certainly a useful source of knowledge, one needs to be aware that it cannot be treated like an ultimate source of information, especially when it provides conflicting explanations regarding a given question. Secondly, it doesn't seem fair to delete an important part of a sentence when quoting it.

    The full sentence quoted above is "It represents Slavic speech approximately from the 2nd millennium B.C. through the 6th century A.D.[1]". Importantly, this referes to only one of the classifications discussed in that very article, more specifically to the outdated work (devoted to a single feature of Slavic languages) from 1968 by Savel Kliachko (who is not counted among the most respected Slavicists/linguists and apparently doesn't even deserve his own article on Wikipedia). Another sentence from the same Wikipedia article on Proto-Slavic says: "The language described in this article generally reflects the middle period, usually termed Late Proto-Slavic (sometimes Middle Common Slavic[2]) and often dated to around the 7th to 8th centuries."

    Not surprisingly, yet another Wikipedia article on proto-language says: "In the strict sense, a proto-language is the most recent common ancestor of a language family, immediately before the family started to diverge into the attested daughter languages." Obviously, according to this most commonly used definition of proto-langauge, Proto-Slavic could not have been used both 2000 BC and 600 AD, especially when the Wikipedia article admits that Proto-Slavic was a rapidly evolving language.

    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    There are plenty of Vedic Sanskrit words and grammatical forms identical to Slavic, so it is reality, not reconstructions.
    What does it prove? It is well known that many similarities to Sanskrit are present in all known Indo-European languages (and this is because they all descend from a common ancestral language called Proto-Indo-European), and I can show you multiple examples of Sanskrit words and phrases that look almost identical in ancient Greek or even in modern IE languages (including for example Baltic) but not in Slavic.
    Are you seriously suggesting that Sanskrit was Proto-Slavic?


    Here is one example that is probably well known to many members of this forum:

    Lithuanian: Dievas davė dantis, Dievas duos ir duonos.
    Latvian: Dievs deva zobus, Dievs dos un maizes.
    Prussian: Dēiws dāi dāntins, Dēiws wīrst dāwuns be geītkan.

    Sanskrit: Devas adadāt datas, Devas dāt api dhānās.

    Polish: Bóg dał zęby, Bóg da i chleb (dał Pan Bóg zęby, da i chleb).
    Serbian: Bog je dao zube, Bog će dati hleba (Бог је дао зубе, Бог ће дати хлеба).

    Latin: Deus dedit dentes, Deus dabit panem.
    Spanish: Dios dio dientes, Dios dará pan.

    German: Gott gab uns Zähne, Gott wird uns Brot geben.
    Danish: Gud gav os tćnder, Gud vil give os brřd.
    English: God gave teeth, God will also give bread.

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