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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    I got the feeling this is the scenario most of us have been arguing for during this discussion.

    Proto-Balto-Slavs appear somewhere in the middle of that cline. What would become proto-Slavic formed further to the South, with M458 and S19848 possibly being introduced from the West/South (although there isn't definitive proof in the form of aDNA for S19848).

    As West, East, and South Slavs expand - they assimilate Central European, 'Steppe', and Balkan elements, respectively. Which is a process we start seeing with some of the Medieval Slavic samples (i.e, Sunghir6, CZE_EarlySlav...)

    A cline from the baltic to the carpathians and then the part I highlighted in bold. Isn't that the geographical position of the Polish/Ukranian border?

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    I got the feeling this is the scenario most of us have been arguing for during this discussion.

    Proto-Balto-Slavs appear somewhere in the middle of that cline. What would become proto-Slavic formed further to the South, with M458 and S19848 possibly being introduced from the West/South (although there isn't definitive proof in the form of aDNA for S19848).

    As West, East, and South Slavs expand - they assimilate Central European, 'Steppe', and Balkan elements, respectively. Which is a process we start seeing with some of the Medieval Slavic samples (i.e, Sunghir6, CZE_EarlySlav...)
    The debate somewhat reminds me on the "indigenous Celtic" debate, for which some argue that there is a direct continuation of Bell Beakers to later Celts. Granted in both cases the autosomal profile might be pretty simlar, even some patrilineages been already there, yet there might still be a significant influx and ethnolinguistic shift coming with the LBA-EIA transition. And following what David said, this shift might have been even bigger in the North East of Europe for Baltoslavs than for Celts in the West, but present in both.
    Its possible that people just adopted cremation and advanced metallurgy by cultural diffusion, or largely so, but there is always the option this was accompanied by a colonisation or even replacement event. And if the right patrilineages will be found in the more advanced Bronze Age groups nearby the Carpathians, this would be a total game changer. Its all up to what someone arguing in favour of that scenario has in his sleeves, and I don't think he just made it up, especially not the part about the uniparentals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    I personally don't think Lusatians or other Central Europeans really played much if any role in the formation of Proto-Balto-Slavs which seems to be before the Iron Age and very likely not close to the Carpathians. Balts also lack any old and pre-Slavic I2a-Y3120 or M458 what makes it unlikely these lines were associated with Proto-Balto-Slavs in the first place. Surely Pre-Proto-Slavs are another story and had these influences but this is expected for one of the most southern Balto-Slavic groups and even according to the Kiev culture theory the earlier La Tene influences are seen as crucial factor which differentiated Pre-Proto-Slavs from Balts and other people of the Balto-Slavic continuum. Nonetheless the AV2-like profile not seems to be the result of Central Europen admixture because we seem to see it among Proto-Balts and Balt_IA too and among all modern Balts who are mostly modeled as 50% AV2 and 50% Balt_BA. But despite having so much AV2-like admix they lack any old I2a-Y3120 or M458 so these lines unlikely created the Av2 like profile
    Could be a series of founder effects and of course, Z280 Baltoslavic subclades are key. Its probably the only candidate for a more North Eastern origin. Yet we have it, even if its no important subclade for the decision, in Lusatians too. We'll just have to wait were else they appear and again, if they appear in the Urnfield groups, just as a hypothetical scenario, this would mean for the North East a paternal replacement level substitution, regardless of whether they had a signicant autosomal input.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-25-2021 at 10:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    A cline from the baltic to the carpathians and then the part I highlighted in bold. Isn't that the geographical position of the Polish/Ukranian border?
    Possibly, but we're talking about the Volyn/Lublin area - not the Carpathians, which are further to the southwest and where Ukraine shares a border with Slovakia, not Poland.
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Possibly, but we're talking about the Volyn/Lublin area - not the Carpathians, which are further to the southwest and where Ukraine shares a border with Slovakia, not Poland.
    Ukrainian-Slovakian border is West-Carpathian, not East-Carpathian.
     
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    I believe once we get genomes from either “Scythian farmers” or Neuri (Milograd) or Boudini (Yukhnovo) or from Gelonus town (mix of Greeks - EEF, Scythians - Steppe, Boudini - LVA_BA?), then some Av2 type guys are expected already 500 BCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    I believe once we get genomes from either “Scythian farmers” or Neuri (Milograd) or Boudini (Yukhnovo) or from Gelonus town (mix of Greeks - EEF, Scythians - Steppe, Boudini - LVA_BA?), then some Av2 type guys are expected already 500 BCE.
    Neuri are my favourits for Proto-Balto-Slavic.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The debate somewhat reminds me on the "indigenous Celtic" debate, for which some argue that there is a direct continuation of Bell Beakers to later Celts. Granted in both cases the autosomal profile might be pretty simlar, even some patrilineages been already there, yet there might still be a significant influx and ethnolinguistic shift coming with the LBA-EIA transition. And following what David said, this shift might have been even bigger in the North East of Europe for Baltoslavs than for Celts in the West, but present in both.
    Its possible that people just adopted cremation and advanced metallurgy by cultural diffusion, or largely so, but there is always the option this was accompanied by a colonisation or even replacement event. And if the right patrilineages will be found in the more advanced Bronze Age groups nearby the Carpathians, this would be a total game changer. Its all up to what someone arguing in favour of that scenario has in his sleeves, and I don't think he just made it up, especially not the part about the uniparentals.



    Could be a series of founder effects and of course, Z280 Baltoslavic subclades are key. Its probably the only candidate for a more North Eastern origin. Yet we have it, even if its no important subclade for the decision, in Lusatians too. We'll just have to wait were else they appear and again, if they appear in the Urnfield groups, just as a hypothetical scenario, this would mean for the North East a paternal replacement level substitution, regardless of whether they had a signicant autosomal input.
    Not sure why you compare these theories. It is consensus among most archeologists and linguists that Balto-Slavic and later Proto-Slavic developed in East-Central Europe and not in the Balkan/Central Europe just like it is consensus that Celtic came to Britain from Central Europe.

    Also unlike in Central-West Europe populations in Central Europe and East Europe were entirely different from each other in terms of genetics and archaelogy. There is almost no overlap in terms of autosomal dna and Y-DNA between Balto-Slavs and Hun_BA/Tollense/Halstatt/Halberstadt. Western Lusatia having basal Z280 tells as much as Srubnaya having Z280 or is Srubnaya ancestral to Proto-Balto-Slavs because of Z280 too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Ukrainian-Slovakian border is West-Carpathian, not East-Carpathian.
    What's your point? I was talking about the Northern Border of Poland/Ukraine.



    Most of the Carpathian homeland talk appears to be speculation, not really backed up by solid findings. So unless they discover ancient DNA of a population living in the Carpathians that is more likely to be ancestral to Slavs than who ever lived to the South of Lithuania_BA, there really isn't much to talk about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Neuri are my favourits for Proto-Balto-Slavic.
    Naura river is how Yatwings called Narew. If those two are indeed related then interesting linguistic implication would be that Neuri is an older ethnonym than Balto-Slavic itself. IE *ew -> BS *aw is a regular sound change in Balto-Slavic dating back to common Balto-Slavic.
    Even if not, unless that is ethnonym given by outsiders, it still shows pre-BS *eu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Not sure why you compare these theories. It is consensus among most archeologists and linguists that Balto-Slavic and later Proto-Slavic developed in East-Central Europe and not in the Balkan/Central Europe just like it is consensus that Celtic came to Britain from Central Europe.

    Also unlike in Central-West Europe populations in Central Europe and East Europe were entirely different from each other in terms of genetics and archaelogy. There is almost no overlap in terms of autosomal dna and Y-DNA between Balto-Slavs and Hun_BA/Tollense/Halstatt/Halberstadt. Western Lusatia having basal Z280 tells as much as Srubnaya having Z280 or is Srubnaya ancestral to Proto-Balto-Slavs because of Z280 too?
    Rather we're possibly talking about what was before Baltoslavs and a common Satem-related horizon from my point of view. I think a lot of debate ends in confusion because of unclear points in time for each reference. If all Lusatians would be like the Western Lusatian, they would be closer to Centum speakers and Germanics, just like some proponents of that theory said in the past. But we don't know yet and a common paternal origin with the Eastern European IE sphere is at least an indication that this MIGHT not be the case, especially for the central and Eastern portions of that horizon. Also, if you compare the map I linked to, the Lusatians directly bordered most of the candidate regions for Proto-Baltoslavs, so they are simply the most likely vector for the transmission of advanced metallurgy and the rite of cremation, which means a whole new religion and value system. And its not like we can't observe significant shifts up to the Baltics from the LBA to IA. It all depends solely on the continuity which can be only proven or disproven with way more samples from the whole macro-region.

    I also say they didn't develop in "Balkan/Central Europe", where have I ever written anything like that? The Carpathians are not the Balkan, but at best form a border to it and Lusatians belong even less to the Balkans, though they might have had Carpatho-Balkan influences, which is however one of those time scale issues I pointed to and which might be rather irrelevant for the bigger picture of how Proto-Baltoslavs developed genetically.

    Coming back to what I actually said, how can the Proto-Baltoslavs not have been at least influenced by the Lusatian culture and its affiliates?
    https://nat.museum-digital.de/index....ekt&oges=74934

    Surely those transmitted the innovations and probably more.

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