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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    PROTO SLAVIC DNA= BALTIC BRONZE AGE + EEF* MORE STEPPE
    No, it isn't; Baltic BA groups like the ones from Latvia have HG admixture in the region of 30% - way too much to be ancestral in any significant way to later proto Slavs.

    You could actually, with the same level of success, claim that SLAVIC DNA = Srubnaya +just a little bit of extra Hunter-Gatherer. Feel free to replace the former with any post-CW group that existed in that region of Eastern Europe.

    The reality is that there likely was a cline of HG/EEF ancestry that extended from the Baltics in the North down to what is now Belarus in the South, the groups that later formed the core of early Slavic speakers would have been on the southern/EEF end of that cline.

    There has been no aDNA from Belarus and North-Central Ukraine. Until that changes, we are unlikely to sample the true ancestral source population and instead only have very distantly related proxies to that population.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    IIRC there is a R1aZ93 sample from the eastern flank of the carpathians in Romania

    GLAV_14, a male from the Late Eneolithic site Glăvăneştii Vechi, classified as Romania Bronze Age (ca. 3500-3000 BC), mtDNA T1a1
    The Glavanesti site wasn't even radiocarbon-dated; look at the time range estimates in the supplemental table that came with the paper.


     


    A margin of 2000 years....

    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    It is nonsense, look at this:



    There are plenty of Slavic words in Vedic Sanskrit, words, which Balts do not have or have in a changed form. That common Vedic-Slavic forms came from CWC , and existed before CWC-R1aZ93 and CWC-Z283 tribes separated. Balto-Slavic language is not a real spoken language, it has never been reconstructed. It is a hypothesis only, so stop your BS.
    All Proto languages, including Proto-Indo-European, are reconstructions, so by definition, not 'real spoken language'. Balto-Slavic is a universally accepted grouping among modern linguists, much like Indo-Iranian.

    You're free to disagree with the academic consensus, but please include valid linguistic evidence in your arguments beyond calling it 'BS'.
    Last edited by altvred; 05-16-2021 at 05:25 PM.
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    The Middle Dnieper was probably an important stopover for Indo-Iranian migration, but it was certainly not the source of it. This source was closer to the Carpathians.

    "The strongest connections for Fatyanovo Culture in archaeological material can be seen with the Middle Dnieper Culture (23, 48) spread in present-day Belarus and Ukraine (49, 50). The territory of what is now Ukraine is where the most eastern individuals with European EF ancestry and the most western Yamnaya Culture individuals are from based on published genomic data (13, 51) (Fig. 1 and data S1). Furthermore, archaeological finds show that LBK reached western Ukraine around 5300 BCE (52), and the Yamnaya complex (burial mounds) arrived in southeastern Europe around 3000 BCE and spread further as far as Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Hungary (53). This is in accordance with our genetic results as the two populations that proved to be plausible mixture sources for Fatyanovo, with the other source being either of the two Russian Yamnaya groups (Kalmykia or Samara), were Globular Amphora that includes individuals from Ukraine and Poland, and Trypillia that is composed of individuals from Ukraine. These findings suggest present-day Ukraine as the possible origin of the migration leading to the formation of the Fatyanovo Culture and of the Corded Ware cultures in general".

    and Fig.1 Map of the geographical locations of the individuals of this study and timeline showing the dates of individuals and cultures.

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/4/eabd6535

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    In other words: the source of the Indo-Iranian migration could not be further east of the area in which we find at the same time artifacts of agricultural, steppe and corded cultures in the greatest numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    The Middle Dnieper was probably an important stopover for Indo-Iranian migration, but it was certainly not the source of it. This source was closer to the Carpathians.

    "The strongest connections for Fatyanovo Culture in archaeological material can be seen with the Middle Dnieper Culture (23, 48) spread in present-day Belarus and Ukraine (49, 50). The territory of what is now Ukraine is where the most eastern individuals with European EF ancestry and the most western Yamnaya Culture individuals are from based on published genomic data (13, 51) (Fig. 1 and data S1). Furthermore, archaeological finds show that LBK reached western Ukraine around 5300 BCE (52), and the Yamnaya complex (burial mounds) arrived in southeastern Europe around 3000 BCE and spread further as far as Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Hungary (53). This is in accordance with our genetic results as the two populations that proved to be plausible mixture sources for Fatyanovo, with the other source being either of the two Russian Yamnaya groups (Kalmykia or Samara), were Globular Amphora that includes individuals from Ukraine and Poland, and Trypillia that is composed of individuals from Ukraine. These findings suggest present-day Ukraine as the possible origin of the migration leading to the formation of the Fatyanovo Culture and of the Corded Ware cultures in general".

    and Fig.1 Map of the geographical locations of the individuals of this study and timeline showing the dates of individuals and cultures.

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/4/eabd6535
    If we remove from Fatyanovo the EEF \ WHG obtained on the middle Dnieper from Trypillya or from the Ukrainian GAC, then the remaining part gives the population of CHG\EHG\WHG, which was not present until 3000, not only in the Carpathians, but even west of the Dnieper

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    If we remove from Fatyanovo the EEF \ WHG obtained on the middle Dnieper from Trypillya or from the Ukrainian GAC, then the remaining part gives the population of CHG\EHG\WHG, which was not present until 3000, not only in the Carpathians, but even west of the Dnieper

    Steppe ancestry was in Romania and Bulgaria already buon 4000 BC.
    Usatovo started from 3500/3600 and was mostly steppe DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Steppe ancestry was in Romania and Bulgaria already buon 4000 BC.
    these are hypotheses, at the moment it is not confirmed by aDNA

    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Usatovo started from 3500/3600 and was mostly steppe DNA
    Yes, the period is sufficient to pass from the Lower Don to the middle Dnieper from 3500 to 3000 BC

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    Vladimir, I think you meant the lower Danube.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Usatovo_culture.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    these are hypotheses, at the moment it is not confirmed by aDNA

    Yes, the period is sufficient to pass from the Lower Don to the middle Dnieper from 3500 to 3000 BC
    Its basically confirmed, Usatovo came from the Western groups of the steppe people, more Western than those groups in the forest steppe, most likely Sredny Stog-Dereivka, from which Corded Ware came. They had long term contacts with TCC and were probably somewhat admixed, but that's it. And its these people which were controlling the Carpathian zone and moved South also, from which Indo-Iranians or better Sintashta got a significant impulse later, which might even have been genetically significant.

    Usatovo and those early Western groups had intensive contacts with different Neolithic groups, including TCC and GAC. GAC too moved into the Carpathian zone, almost in a two-pronged attack on TCC both from the North West and the East (steppe people). They marched on deep into the South and settled down in the Carpathian region, some fused early on with Usatovo-derived and related groups. That's one possibility how some of the GAC-I2 could have made it into the steppe groups.

    So far we know that Usatovo fits the bill, largely, genetically and that there was a significant impulse from the zone they controlled up the North, which resulted in the great leap forward for Sintashta. Whether their genetic contribution was significant also, we don't know yet.

    The interaction between GAC and TCC will be interesting to investigate further in any case:
    Our analyses (PCA, f3 outgroup analysis) also suggest a genetic relationship between the individuals from Moldova and those associated with the contemporaneous FBC/TRB and GAC, possibly indicating a common origin and/or ongoing interactions.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-61190-0
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-17-2021 at 08:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Its basically confirmed, Usatovo came from the Western groups of the steppe people, more Western than those groups in the forest steppe, most likely Sredny Stog-Dereivka, from which Corded Ware came. They had long term contacts with TCC and were probably somewhat admixed, but that's it. And its these people which were controlling the Carpathian zone and moved South also, from which Indo-Iranians or better Sintashta got a significant impulse later, which might even have been genetically significant.

    Usatovo and those early Western groups had intensive contacts with different Neolithic groups, including TCC and GAC. GAC too moved into the Carpathian zone, almost in a two-pronged attack on TCC both from the North West and the East (steppe people). They marched on deep into the South and settled down in the Carpathian region, some fused early on with Usatovo-derived and related groups. That's one possibility how some of the GAC-I2 could have made it into the steppe groups.

    So far we know that Usatovo fits the bill, largely, genetically and that there was a significant impulse from the zone they controlled up the North, which resulted in the great leap forward for Sintashta. Whether their genetic contribution was significant also, we don't know yet.

    The interaction between GAC and TCC will be interesting to investigate further in any case:


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-61190-0
    I am not aware of archaelogists linking Fatyanovo or Middle Dnjepr to Usatovo and neither genetics point this direction. The importance of the Carpathians is both exagerrated for the formaion of Corded Ware and Indo-Iranians. The same arguments for a Carpathian homeland of Indo-Iranians are used for argueing that Indo-Iranians are from the Caucasus or BMAC because of metallurgical influences. Also i don't see the Carpathian metallurgical influences in Fatyanovo, Sintashta or Abashevo rather impulses from Yamnaya, local Ural pops and potentially the Caucausus.

    Davidski also recently said here that Usatovo was not Z93 and that the Z93 rumours were wrong or based on outdated information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    The Middle Dnieper was probably an important stopover for Indo-Iranian migration, but it was certainly not the source of it. This source was closer to the Carpathians.

    "The strongest connections for Fatyanovo Culture in archaeological material can be seen with the Middle Dnieper Culture (23, 48) spread in present-day Belarus and Ukraine (49, 50). The territory of what is now Ukraine is where the most eastern individuals with European EF ancestry and the most western Yamnaya Culture individuals are from based on published genomic data (13, 51) (Fig. 1 and data S1). Furthermore, archaeological finds show that LBK reached western Ukraine around 5300 BCE (52), and the Yamnaya complex (burial mounds) arrived in southeastern Europe around 3000 BCE and spread further as far as Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Hungary (53). This is in accordance with our genetic results as the two populations that proved to be plausible mixture sources for Fatyanovo, with the other source being either of the two Russian Yamnaya groups (Kalmykia or Samara), were Globular Amphora that includes individuals from Ukraine and Poland, and Trypillia that is composed of individuals from Ukraine. These findings suggest present-day Ukraine as the possible origin of the migration leading to the formation of the Fatyanovo Culture and of the Corded Ware cultures in general".

    and Fig.1 Map of the geographical locations of the individuals of this study and timeline showing the dates of individuals and cultures.

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/4/eabd6535
    I don't understand how this supports a Carpathian homeland and there was already plenty of EEF (TRB, GAC, even Tripillia) north of the Carpathians in Central/North Ukraine. The Middle Dnjepr zone is likely not just the homeland of Indo-Iranians but also of all of CWC. There is hardly evidence for Pre-Indo-Iranians moving fast westwards to the Carpathians and than fast eastwards again to Central Russia.

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