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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    All Proto languages, including Proto-Indo-European, are reconstructions, so by definition, not 'real spoken language'. Balto-Slavic is a universally accepted grouping among modern linguists, much like Indo-Iranian.

    You're free to disagree with the academic consensus, but please include valid linguistic evidence in your arguments beyond calling it 'BS'.
    Yes, but we don’t know when, where, how and if PIE was spoken. It is a mainstream view.
    Reconstructed PIE is not a real language, there is absolutely no evidence that it was spoken or understood by anybody:
    Firstly, it is useful to distinguish between the hypothetical, reconstructed ‘language’ which is the result of the operation of the comparative method on the IE languages, what we shall call ‘reconstructed PIE’, and the unattested spoken language from which we presume all the IE languages derived, which we shall refer to as ‘the spoken IE parent language’. Reconstructed PIE may have some features in common with the spoken IE parent language, but it is not the same as it, and is not a real language. Reconstructed PIE is a construct which does not have an existence at a particular time and place (other than in books such as this one), and is unlike a real language in that it contains data which may belong to different stages of its linguistic history.
    “Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction” By James Clackson


    So if someone says that PIE was in this place at this time, mixed with language X here and created language Y there, I call it BS, pseudoscience. It cannot be scientifically proved.

    Balto-Slavic language has never been reconstructed. And it will never be. It is only mentioned in the books as hypothesis. Nobody knows when, where, how and if it was spoken. Baltic languages are mixed with Slavic as Baltic populations are mixed with Slavic. Mixing has been going on by centuries as Slavic languages were used in Baltic lands. Which words that Balts share with Slavs were borrowed from Slavic and which were not is debatable. So there are many theories about convergence, divergence, secondary convergence etc. of the Baltic and Slavic languages.
    Claiming that Balto-Slavic language was spoken here and mixed with Germanic there to create Proto-Slavic or mixed with Uralic and created Proto-Baltic, is either trolling or ignorance, in both cases it is BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    Yes, but we don’t know when, where, how and if PIE was spoken. It is a mainstream view.
    Reconstructed PIE is not a real language, there is absolutely no evidence that it was spoken or understood by anybody:
    You do not seem to understand how linguistics works or are willfully being ignorant.

    Reconstructed languages approximate what the mother language would have looked like based on the systematic comparison of the daughter languages. However, most of the well-established Proto languages like PIE still represent a very close image of a real language that existed deep in the past and was ancestral to modern and extinct languages we only know off from writing.

    Historical linguistics is an objective field of study that employs the scientific method same as any other branch of science.

    When trying to determine the genetic relatedness of two or more languages, the methodology employed is meant to rule out any possibility of the apparent resemblances between the languages being the result of language contact (borrowings, areal influence).

    Furthermore, the similarities must be sufficiently numerous and systematic (i.e., there is a particular pattern we can observe, and it is not random) so that they cannot be dismissed as chance similarities.

    I don't believe there's a better example of the power of Comparative reconstruction than de Saussure's laryngeal theory, which he proposed in 1879 and was vindicated twenty years later when tablets in the extinct Hittite language were recovered.

    The tablets show that Hittite had retained the laryngeal consonants that de Saussure theorized existed in PIE but were subsequently lost in the modern daughter languages.

    PIE isn't just a hypothesis in the heads of some linguists; as the example above shows, there's real predictive power in historical linguistics that we can use to infer much about languages in the past without having any records of them.

    This doesn't mean that linguists are never wrong but in the case of Indo-European languages, we can be rather confident in our assumptions.


    Balto-Slavic language has never been reconstructed.
    Wrong, google it, buddy.

    Claiming that Balto-Slavic language was spoken here and mixed with Germanic there to create Proto-Slavic or mixed with Uralic and created Proto-Baltic, is either trolling or ignorance, in both cases it is BS.
    What does any of that have to do with the Balto-Slavic grouping itself accepted in modern Indo-European studies? The presence or lack thereof of influences from other languages does not disprove the existence of a common ancestor for both Baltic and Slavic, which is based on common innovations shared by both branches.

    Also,

    So if someone says that PIE was in this place at this time, mixed with language X here and created language Y there, I call it BS, pseudoscience. It cannot be scientifically proved.
    I reemphasize what I said before, please include valid argument points in your posts. Saying a commonly accepted view in academia is 'BS' and pseudoscience doesn't make it true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    I don't understand how this supports a Carpathian homeland and there was already plenty of EEF (TRB, GAC, even Tripillia) north of the Carpathians in Central/North Ukraine. The Middle Dnjepr zone is likely not just the homeland of Indo-Iranians but also of all of CWC. There is hardly evidence for Pre-Indo-Iranians moving fast westwards to the Carpathians and than fast eastwards again to Central Russia.
    Apparently not only Slavs but also Indo-Iranians originated somewhere in the West despite all the existing evidence pointing to the contrary
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    The most paradoxical may be the fact that Fatyanovo Z93, which came from the Ukrainian Podolia, may actually be the westernmost of all the proto-CWC.

    Target: Corded_Ware_POL_early
    Distance: 2.6475% / 0.02647538
    94.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    3.8 WHG
    2.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora

    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    Distance: 2.5562% / 0.02556236
    90.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    3.6 WHG

    Target: RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
    Distance: 1.3007% / 0.01300710
    65.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    2.4 WHG

    It's more plausible that way. Narva here replaces some HG from Belarus and northern Ukraine, for example WHG from the Neman culture

    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    Distance: 2.4615% / 0.02461547
    88.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    5.0 Baltic_LTU_Narva

    Target: Corded_Ware_POL_early
    Distance: 2.6265% / 0.02626475
    92.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    4.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva
    2.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora

    Target: RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
    Distance: 1.2904% / 0.01290429
    65.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    2.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva

    Here is another plausible result:

    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    Distance: 2.4395% / 0.02439488
    86.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    7.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    4.8 RUS_Volosovo_N
    1.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva

    Target: Corded_Ware_POL_early
    Distance: 2.6265% / 0.02626550
    92.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    4.4 Baltic_LTU_Narva
    2.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    0.6 RUS_Volosovo_N

    Target: RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
    Distance: 1.2904% / 0.01290429
    65.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    2.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva
    0.0 RUS_Volosovo_N
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 05-17-2021 at 06:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    The most paradoxical may be the fact that Fatyanovo Z93, which came from the Ukrainian Podolia, may actually be the westernmost of all the proto-CWC.

    Target: Corded_Ware_POL_early
    Distance: 2.6475% / 0.02647538
    94.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    3.8 WHG
    2.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora

    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    Distance: 2.5562% / 0.02556236
    90.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    3.6 WHG

    Target: RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
    Distance: 1.3007% / 0.01300710
    65.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    2.4 WHG

    It's more plausible that way. Narva here replaces some HG from Belarus and northern Ukraine, for example WHG from the Neman culture

    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    Distance: 2.4615% / 0.02461547
    88.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    5.0 Baltic_LTU_Narva

    Target: Corded_Ware_POL_early
    Distance: 2.6265% / 0.02626475
    92.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    4.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva
    2.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora

    Target: RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
    Distance: 1.2904% / 0.01290429
    65.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    2.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva
    What I would be interested in personally is the genetic composition of the northern group of the Corded Ware Culture, especially the Haffküsten- / Rzuewo culture (approx. 2700 BC to the Iron Age), which spread along the Polish Baltic Sea via the Freshness, and
    Curonian Lagoon as far as Lithuania is from an amalgamation of the local Narva-,
    GAC and of course the immigrant CW emerged.
    The cattle breeding is hardly arable but rather focuses on hunting and fishing specializes in the manufacture and trade of amber jewelry.

    Do we have aDNA data from this group?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    What I would be interested in personally is the genetic composition of the northern group of the Corded Ware Culture, especially the Haffküsten- / Rzuewo culture (approx. 2700 BC to the Iron Age), which spread along the Polish Baltic Sea via the Freshness, and
    Curonian Lagoon as far as Lithuania is from an amalgamation of the local Narva-,
    GAC and of course the immigrant CW emerged.
    The cattle breeding is hardly arable but rather focuses on hunting and fishing specializes in the manufacture and trade of amber jewelry.

    Do we have aDNA data from this group?
    Unfortunately, there are no samples of Zutsevo (Rzucewo ) culture at the moment.

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    Altvred, after all, it is mainly Russian geneticists (including Balanowski, Czuchrajewa, Maljarczuk, Derenko) who prove that the Slavs come from the west - from Central Europe. Can you provide although one linguistic or genetic proof that Slavs originate somewhere further east than Southeastern Poland / Southwestern Ukraine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Altvred, after all, it is mainly Russian geneticists (including Balanowski, Czuchrajewa, Maljarczuk, Derenko) who prove that the Slavs come from the west - from Central Europe. Can you provide although one linguistic or genetic proof that Slavs originate somewhere further east than Southeastern Poland / Southwestern Ukraine?
    just a clarification aside from the subject of the thread. There are many definitions of eastern europe and it is not clear where the border is because it is mainly due to which criteria you use for setting the border. There are definitions of eastern europe that include Poland ( along with all the other slavic speaking nations and Romania)for example. Others that consider eastern europe as the states of the former Soviet Union. Making the case of Italy the region you mentioned would be considered eastern Europe.

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    Etrusco, that's right! However, when we usually refer to Eastern Europe, we mean the areas east of Central Europe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra...Europas-en.svg

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  17. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Etrusco, that's right! However, when we usually refer to Eastern Europe, we mean the areas east of Central Europe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra...Europas-en.svg
    That is a tautology. It is obvious that eastern europe is east of central europe. But AFAIK there is no univocal and shared criteria to distinguish between the two

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