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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Venice took Dalmatia from the Holy Roman Empire ( Hapsburg ) after 400 years of an on and off set of wars..............They fought from 1050 to 1430, Venice holding garrison forts in that period...............in 1435 , the Hapsburgs gave up Dalmatia and Venice ruled it until 1797, When napoleon bonaparte took it.
    Venice already had Zara and Spalato in the year 1000AD and they remained under Venice until 1797 ...........that is nearly 800 years
    Dalmatia was a Byzantine theme in the period c. 870-1060s AD. Byzantine reign was more formal than real. During that period the cities were often paying tributes to Croatian dukes. The territoy of that Dalmatia consisted practically only of the coastal cities, and few islands.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia_(theme)

    Croatian duke was "Dux Dalmatiae" in the beginning of 9th century:

    The first known duke, Borna, was named "Duke of Dalmatia" (Latin: Dux Dalmatiae)[8] and later "Duke of Dalmatia and Liburnia" (Latin: Dux Dalmatiae atque Liburniae)[9] in the Annales regni Francorum.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Croatia

    When Croatia became independent kingdom its official name was: "Regnum Croatiae et Dalmatiae".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdo...%E2%80%931102)

    After 1102 Croatia was in personal union with Hungary.

    In 1202 the Venetians, with the help of Crusaders, reconquered and sacked Zadar.

    Later centuries were characterized by conflicts with the Mongols, who sacked Zagreb in 1242, competition with Venice for control over Dalmatian coastal cities,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croati...n_with_Hungary

    We should be careful about the meaning of the term Dalmatia:

    The term "Dalmatia" referred to several coastal cities and islands, at times used as a synonym of Croatia, and was to spread further inland only with the expansion of Venice in the 15th century.

    Venice was not welcome for the local people:

    In 1345 Zadar again rebelled against Venice, but after a lengthy siege in late 1346 the Venetians regained the city. In retaliation for the rebellion Venice destroyed Zadar's sea walls, confiscated weapons from its citizens and sent a Venetian to be the town's governor. King Louis I signed an eight-year peace treaty with Venice in 1348. In 1356, after the end of the peace treaty, King Louis invaded Venetian territories without a former declaration of war. The Croatian army was led by Ban John Csz of Ludbreg. Split, Trogir, and ibenik soon got rid of the Venetian governors, while Zadar fell after a short siege. As Louis at the same time fought successfully in northern Italy, Venice was forced to sign the Treaty of Zadar on 18 February 1358.

    With the Treaty King Louis gained power over the entire area of Dalmatia, from the island of Cres to Durrs in Albania, including Dubrovnik (Ragusa), which acted as an independent unit. The Doge of Venice had to renounce its title "Duke of Croatia and Dalmatia".[66] After this the entire Croatian territory was integrated under one administration and under the authority of the Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia. As a result, the economy of Croatia flourished in the late 14th century, especially in cities on the eastern Adriatic coast. New royal towns were established on trade routes, richer merchants' increased dominance over towns, and new conditions marked the beginning of cultural integration between coastal and continental Croatia.

    Hungarian king sold Dalmatia to Venice:

    Eventually in 1409 Ladislaus sold his rights in Dalmatia to Venice for 100,000 ducats in an attempt to gain allies in the upcoming war against the Republic of Florence.[75]

    Croatia elected Hapsburgs as late as in 1527, not before:

    The Croatian parliament unanimously elected Ferdinand of the House of Habsburg as King of Croatia at their assembly in Cetin on January 1, 1527.

    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    These Dalmatians are different from Venetians or slavs ( they are their own identity ) and since they have been under Venice more than double the time they where under the Slavs it makes sense they now ( currently ) seek autonomy from the Croatian nation and to self rule, this began in 2014

    Up until 1920 all Dalmatians that came to Australia where classified as either Italians or Austrians, depending on if they where coastal or not
    These Dalmatians are a modern Italian myth. Even though Zadar was a capital of Venetian Dalmatia it was already Croatian in 12th century:

    The population of Zadar during the Medieval period was predominantly Croatian, according to numerous archival documents,[31] and Croatian was used in liturgy,[32] as shown by the writings of cardinal Boson, who followed Pope Alexander III en route to Venice in 1177. When the papal ships took shelter in the harbour of Zadar, the inhabitants greeted the Pope by singing lauds and canticles in Croatian.[33][34]

    Venice brought its bureaucrates. They lived in the cities forming a Venetian speaking minority. Many local Croats later got assimilated into Venetian/Italian nation in order to elevate their social status. Also there were lot of merchants from Italian soil who moved to Dalmatia to make business. The native Dalmatians died out hundreds of years ago. Also very often ethnic Croats called themselves Dalmatians, as an expression of their regional identity (because they lived in Venetian Dalmatia). Even Croatian language was sometimes called Dalmatian for the same reason. Also Dalmatian was very often a synonyme for a Croat.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 07-28-2021 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    They used an LD-based method to estimate pop size, and here is what the original developers of that method (Waples et. al. 2008) said about its interpretation:



    The simplest explanation for why the Polish have highest Ne in that sample (when the parental generation here is definitely something like the populations of Poland, Germany etc. just a few decades ago, which we know for a fact is when Germany's population is definitely bigger than Poland's) is that the samples from Poland come from a more diverse regions in Poland than the samples from the other countries.

    The systematic deviation is not just for Balkan countries (don't just read the words, look at the numbers), but also runs into Poland: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw...2_1335fig8.jpg. In fact the Polish ("PL") have the second-largest deviation in the entire plot, they share twice as many IBD blocks with Bosnians as predicted by the model. Whatever phenomenon is making Balkans people deviate from their homogeneous model is also making Polish people deviate, and the further West you go the smaller the deviation (Czechs and Slovakians take part in it the least among the Slavs).

    Lastly, like I said, it is difficult to disentangle the effect of a population expansion from a formerly small population from that of a increase in population in an area of formerly low population density and high interconnectivity, the two produce almost the same outcomes when it comes to segment-based methods.
    Something I've noticed: there's something incredibly interesting about the IBD calculations in the Ringbauer et al paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw...2_1335fig8.jpg

    Most populations share the most IBD with those right beside them and fewer IBD with those far away in a nice gradient, and for those well-behaved populations there is little deviation between predicted IBD sharing (top number in each square) and actual IBD sharing (bottom). One of the biggest exceptions are the Albanians, who share almost twice as many segments with Romanians (a country on the other side of the Balkans) as with Macedonians (who are right adjoining Albanians), and this is one of the biggest deviations in the entire plot. In general there is a band of populations, running across the Southern Balkans from Romania-Serbia-Bosnia-Macedonia-Croatia that share a lot of excess IBD with Albania, more than can be predicted from geographic position alone, and among these Romanians, who are at the end of this band on the opposite side of the Balkans, surprisingly share the second-highest number of IBD with Albanians, far more than e.g. Bulgarians, Macedonians and Montenegrins share for example.

    The Romanian connection is especially interesting given the linguistic evidence for close connections between the linguistic ancestors of the Albanians and Romanians--they share a close relationship on top of the commonalities of the Balkan Sprachbund, and there is also evidence that neither of these populations were native to their current distribution.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-28-2021 at 09:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    yes there was rebellions...998AD rebellion when Zadar wanted to remain under the orthodox church and remain under Byzantium .....Venice was given it by the Byzantines as aid from Venice in the Byzantine wars against the normans in Albania
    That's the nonsense. Zadar has never been Orthodox, nor wanted to be Orthodox.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_St_Donatus
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 07-28-2021 at 10:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Something I've noticed: there's something incredibly interesting about the IBD calculations in the Ringbauer et al paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw...2_1335fig8.jpg

    Most populations share the most IBD with those right beside them and fewer IBD with those far away in a nice gradient, and for those well-behaved populations there is little deviation between predicted IBD sharing (top number in each square) and actual IBD sharing (bottom). One of the biggest exceptions are the Albanians, who share almost twice as many segments with Romanians (a country on the other side of the Balkans) as with Macedonians (who are right adjoining Albanians), and this is one of the biggest deviations in the entire plot. In general there is a band of populations, running across the Southern Balkans from Romania-Serbia-Bosnia-Macedonia-Croatia that share a lot of excess IBD with Albania, more than can be predicted from geographic position alone, and among these Romanians, who are at the end of this band on the opposite side of the Balkans, surprisingly share the second-highest number of IBD with Albanians, far more than e.g. Bulgarians, Macedonians and Montenegrins share for example.

    The Romanian connection is especially interesting given the linguistic evidence for close connections between the linguistic ancestors of the Albanians and Romanians--they share a close relationship on top of the commonalities of the Balkan Sprachbund, and there is also evidence that neither of these populations were native to their current distribution.
    In fact, on the Romanian side, Romanians share more IBD with Albanians than with any other population, so the biggest exception to the geographic rule is for Romanians! This is pretty crazy and very indicative of the allochthonist theory for Romanian origins if you ask me.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-28-2021 at 10:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    In fact, on the Romanian side, Romanians share more IBD with Albanians than with any other population, so the biggest exception to the geographic rule in for Romanians! This is pretty crazy and very indicative of the allochthonist theory for Romanian origins if you ask me.
    Probably this IBD sharing with Albanians is owing to their Aromanian component which likely came from the Southern Balkans in today's Albania, as well as Northern Greece and North Macedonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    That's the nonsense. Zadar has never been Orthodox, nor wanted to be Orthodox.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_St_Donatus
    the revolt was against the byzantine church which controlled the area...................same issue with many republics, religion stuck their noses in too much

    Venice was hounded by the Pope if they did not enforce the catholic church in the areas they controlled .............they , Venice was excommunicated by the pope at least 10 times in their history

    Religion was trying to control everything in those days

    ........................................

    On another matter...............let me know if you are aiming to say that the Dalmatians are slavs, because I will never believe it and never support it..................it will be the same as saying, the Scots are English , because they speak English, Have English surnames and are controlled by the English Government.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Dalmatia was a Byzantine theme in the period c. 870-1060s AD. Byzantine reign was more formal than real. During that period the cities were often paying tributes to Croatian dukes. The territoy of that Dalmatia consisted practically only of the coastal cities, and few islands.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia_(theme)

    Croatian duke was "Dux Dalmatiae" in the beginning of 9th century:

    The first known duke, Borna, was named "Duke of Dalmatia" (Latin: Dux Dalmatiae)[8] and later "Duke of Dalmatia and Liburnia" (Latin: Dux Dalmatiae atque Liburniae)[9] in the Annales regni Francorum.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Croatia

    When Croatia became independent kingdom its official name was: "Regnum Croatiae et Dalmatiae".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdo...%E2%80%931102)

    After 1102 Croatia was in personal union with Hungary.

    In 1202 the Venetians, with the help of Crusaders, reconquered and sacked Zadar.

    Later centuries were characterized by conflicts with the Mongols, who sacked Zagreb in 1242, competition with Venice for control over Dalmatian coastal cities,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croati...n_with_Hungary

    We should be careful about the meaning of the term Dalmatia:

    The term "Dalmatia" referred to several coastal cities and islands, at times used as a synonym of Croatia, and was to spread further inland only with the expansion of Venice in the 15th century.

    Venice was not welcome for the local people:

    In 1345 Zadar again rebelled against Venice, but after a lengthy siege in late 1346 the Venetians regained the city. In retaliation for the rebellion Venice destroyed Zadar's sea walls, confiscated weapons from its citizens and sent a Venetian to be the town's governor. King Louis I signed an eight-year peace treaty with Venice in 1348. In 1356, after the end of the peace treaty, King Louis invaded Venetian territories without a former declaration of war. The Croatian army was led by Ban John Csz of Ludbreg. Split, Trogir, and Šibenik soon got rid of the Venetian governors, while Zadar fell after a short siege. As Louis at the same time fought successfully in northern Italy, Venice was forced to sign the Treaty of Zadar on 18 February 1358.

    With the Treaty King Louis gained power over the entire area of Dalmatia, from the island of Cres to Durrs in Albania, including Dubrovnik (Ragusa), which acted as an independent unit. The Doge of Venice had to renounce its title "Duke of Croatia and Dalmatia".[66] After this the entire Croatian territory was integrated under one administration and under the authority of the Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia. As a result, the economy of Croatia flourished in the late 14th century, especially in cities on the eastern Adriatic coast. New royal towns were established on trade routes, richer merchants' increased dominance over towns, and new conditions marked the beginning of cultural integration between coastal and continental Croatia.

    Hungarian king sold Dalmatia to Venice:

    Eventually in 1409 Ladislaus sold his rights in Dalmatia to Venice for 100,000 ducats in an attempt to gain allies in the upcoming war against the Republic of Florence.[75]

    Croatia elected Hapsburgs as late as in 1527, not before:

    The Croatian parliament unanimously elected Ferdinand of the House of Habsburg as King of Croatia at their assembly in Cetin on January 1, 1527.



    These Dalmatians are a modern Italian myth. Even though Zadar was a capital of Venetian Dalmatia it was already Croatian in 12th century:

    The population of Zadar during the Medieval period was predominantly Croatian, according to numerous archival documents,[31] and Croatian was used in liturgy,[32] as shown by the writings of cardinal Boson, who followed Pope Alexander III en route to Venice in 1177. When the papal ships took shelter in the harbour of Zadar, the inhabitants greeted the Pope by singing lauds and canticles in Croatian.[33][34]

    Venice brought its bureaucrates. They lived in the cities forming a Venetian speaking minority. Many local Croats later got assimilated into Venetian/Italian nation in order to elevate their social status. Also there were lot of merchants from Italian soil who moved to Dalmatia to make business. The native Dalmatians died out hundreds of years ago. Also very often ethnic Croats called themselves Dalmatians, as an expression of their regional identity (because they lived in Venetian Dalmatia). Even Croatian language was sometimes called Dalmatian for the same reason. Also Dalmatian was very often a synonyme for a Croat.
    Impossible that Dalmatians are Slavs if the Slavs only arrived in 639AD .............who where they before ..................Do you think the lands where empty of people?...........It is interesting , that some think Europe was like North America and people moved and left the area vacant of everybody....something like the red indians, pack up the tepee we are moving

    in 535, Dalmatia fell under Byzantine rule ................does that mean that dalmatians where ethnically byzantines then ?

    the first Croats in the area came with King Tomislav who took power of the hinterland in 925
    Byzantine retook the hinterland
    1058, King Kresimir took power
    Venice took control of all of Dalmatia
    then in 1797, Austria was assigned Dalmatia , given to them by Napoleon
    After WW1 , Italy gained after The Treaty of Rapallo in 1920 left Italy with Istria, Cres, Losinj, Rijeka, Zadar, Lastovo and Palagruza
    http://www.forost.ungarisches-instit...19201112-1.pdf

    Italy finally gave up the area in 1975 , sold to Tito ..Osimo Treaties which, in 1975, solved the border question between Italy and Yugoslavia
    After Yugoslavia dissolved, Slovenia for Istria and Croatia for Dalmatian had to keep paying italy the cost of owning these lands

    so with all these change of hands , does that mean to you they also changed identity.............what is going to happen when the EU redo the national borders from 2026 ............Italy to be broken into 4 areas, Spain 5, France 5, Austria 2, ...............maybe we hope it will not happen
    Last edited by vettor; 07-28-2021 at 11:32 PM.


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  12. #2828
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    the revolt was against the byzantine church which controlled the area...................same issue with many republics, religion stuck their noses in too much
    Ok, what are your sources for that claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    On another matter...............let me know if you are aiming to say that the Dalmatians are slavs, because I will never believe it and never support it..................it will be the same as saying, the Scots are English , because they speak English, Have English surnames and are controlled by the English Government.
    Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:D...e_map_bgiu.jpg

    Do you see how thin it was? And this is about the situation which existed in the 9th century. The Slavic language quickly took over during the next 100-200 years. Take for instance the Krk island (Veglia on the map, which is the later name). The oldest Croatian text was found there dated to 11th century. Just for the orientation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%A1ka_tablet

    As for Republic of Ragusa (Dubrovnik)

    Originally, Latin was used in official documents of the Republic. Italian came to use in the 1420s.[56] Both languages were used in official correspondence by the Republic.[57] The Republic was influenced by the Venetian language and the Tuscan dialect.[58] Old Ragusan, a variant of Dalmatian that was spoken on the Dalmatian coast following the end of the Roman Empire, with elements of Croatian and Italian, was among the common languages.[56] Since it was mainly used in speech, it is poorly documented. Its use started declining in the 15th century.[58]

    The use of Croatian in everyday speech increased in late 13th century, and in literary works in mid-15th century.[56] At the end of the 14th century, inhabitants of the republic were mostly native speakers of Croatian,[58] referred to by them as Croatian, Slavic, or Illyrian at the time.[59]

    Ragusan literature, in which Latin, Italian, and Croatian coexisted, blossomed in the 15th and 16th centuries.[64] According to Marcus Tanner:

    During the Renaissance era, Venetian-ruled Dalmatia and Ragusa gave birth to influential intellectuals mostly minor aristocrats and clergymen, Jesuits especially who kept alive the memory of Croatia and the Croatian language when they composed or translated plays and books from Italian and Latin into the vernacular. (...) ... The Dubrovnik poet Dominko Zlatarić (15551610) explained on the frontispiece of his 1597 translation of Sophocles' tragedy Elektra and Tasso's Aminta that it had been "iz veće tudieh jezika u Hrvacki izlozene," "translated from more foreign languages in Croatian".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republ...and_literature

    Shakespeare was not born when this Ragusan guy was writing fine Renaissance plays in Croatian language:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_Dr%C5%BEi%C4%87

    You are dreaming, vettor, your "native" Dalmatians don't exist any more. They are long gone. They were assimilated into Croatian nation long before the modern era.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 07-29-2021 at 12:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Ok, what are your sources for that claim?



    Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:D...e_map_bgiu.jpg

    Do you see how thin it was? And this is about the situation which existed in the 9th century. The Slavic language quickly took over during the next 100-200 years. Take for instance the Krk island (Veglia on the map, which is the later name). The oldest Croatian text was found there dated to 11th century. Just for the orientation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%A1ka_tablet

    As for Republic of Ragusa (Dubrovnik)

    Originally, Latin was used in official documents of the Republic. Italian came to use in the 1420s.[56] Both languages were used in official correspondence by the Republic.[57] The Republic was influenced by the Venetian language and the Tuscan dialect.[58] Old Ragusan, a variant of Dalmatian that was spoken on the Dalmatian coast following the end of the Roman Empire, with elements of Croatian and Italian, was among the common languages.[56] Since it was mainly used in speech, it is poorly documented. Its use started declining in the 15th century.[58]

    The use of Croatian in everyday speech increased in late 13th century, and in literary works in mid-15th century.[56] At the end of the 14th century, inhabitants of the republic were mostly native speakers of Croatian,[58] referred to by them as Croatian, Slavic, or Illyrian at the time.[59]

    Ragusan literature, in which Latin, Italian, and Croatian coexisted, blossomed in the 15th and 16th centuries.[64] According to Marcus Tanner:

    During the Renaissance era, Venetian-ruled Dalmatia and Ragusa gave birth to influential intellectuals – mostly minor aristocrats and clergymen, Jesuits especially – who kept alive the memory of Croatia and the Croatian language when they composed or translated plays and books from Italian and Latin into the vernacular. (...) ... The Dubrovnik poet Dominko Zlatarić (1555–1610) explained on the frontispiece of his 1597 translation of Sophocles' tragedy Elektra and Tasso's Aminta that it had been "iz veće tudieh jezika u Hrvacki izlozene," "translated from more foreign languages in Croatian".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republ...and_literature

    Shakespeare was not born when this Ragusan guy was writing fine Renaissance plays in Croatian language:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_Dr%C5%BEi%C4%87

    You are dreaming, vettor, your "native" Dalmatians don't exist any more. They are long gone. They were assimilated into Croatian nation long before the modern era.
    Of course the Dalmatians dont exist anymore , same as prussians do not exist anymore and many other ethnicies, ,many ethnicities have disappeared due to nationalism ..........that is how nationalism works.........if Tito did not die the croats would be speaking serbian and would not exist today ............one reason the Yugoslav war happened, a serbian takeover of all of Yugoslavia


    As of 15 years ago ..EU parliament
    Solidarity fund for the restitution of property confiscated from Istrian-Dalmatian Italian exiles and for compensation for the relatives of victims of the ‘foibe’ massacres
    Answer in writing

    As a result of the persecution carried out by Marshall Tito’s totalitarian regime against Italians from Istria and Dalmatia, some 350000 of these people had to abandon all their property in the former Yugoslavia, which was expropriated or nationalised. The tragic events experienced by these families and those of the victims of the ‘foibe’ massacres were ignored for decades. It was only recently that the Italian authorities introduced ‘Remembrance Day’ in memory of these tragic events which affected thousands of innocent families.

    There have been two agreements to date — the Osimo Agreement of 1975 and the Rome Agreement of 1983 — granting Italian exiles fair compensation. However, following the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the new states, including Slovenia which will shortly become a member of the EU, did not fully meet their obligation to pay compensation.

    Croatia recently stated that it was prepared to relaunch negotiations with Italy on the issue of confiscated property.

    Will the Commission therefore indicate:
    1. whether it would be possible to set up a solidarity fund for Italian exiles from Istria and Dalmatia and for the families of victims of the ‘foibe’ massacres?
    2. what steps can be taken to ensure that Slovenia fully complies with the 1975 and 1983 agreements?


    So croatia and slovenia had to pay italy for istria and Dalmatia..............the original contract with Tito was 110Billion this was due to the UN after the war WW2, recognising Istrian Italy , Dalmatian italy and the free states of Fiume and Trieste ...........I know Slovenia and Croatia starting paying in 1994, with Slovenia fully paid for Istria , unsure of Croatia

    This is my last conversation on the subject as it is becoming too nationalistic ........we all know nationalism is 50% fake ( propaganda )


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to vettor For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (07-29-2021)

  16. #2830
    Registered Users
    Posts
    554

    Waldemar, note that in the case of Croats and Poles, genetic data from anthropometric analyzes are in perfect agreement with genetic data from genomic analyzes:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41614

    Poles and Croats actually come from a common population.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to ambron For This Useful Post:

     Waldemar (07-29-2021)

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