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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #2831
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    Google translate:

    What about the Hungarians in the South?

    According to Byzantine texts, Etelköz was a smaller area on the right bank of the Dnieper River, roughly up to the Ingulec River. Archaeological data, on the other hand, show that Subbotci-type burials can be found from the left bank of the Dnieper to the Dniester and even all the way to the Danube.

    All this means that the settlement of the ancestors of the Hungarians here was not limited to the steppe region alone, but they freely chose their accommodation. Burial sites are mainly located on the border of the steppe and the wooded steppe, near the large river floodplains, which suggests that the Hungarians in contrast to the Turkish-speaking nomadic peoples, they favored a more humid climate and they were less afraid of the snow.

    The new accommodation, of course, had new connections: we found different types of pottery in the cemeteries of the South. One of the groups of pots was made by Bulgarian potters from Volga, these products were brought by the Hungarians from the Volga region. Other pieces were made in the Crimea, and the third group praises the work of Slavic potters. As for the more expensive silverware, they came from the artisans of the Khazar Kaganate. At the same time, we can well observe the influence of the Hungarians in the finds of their former neighbors. Memories of this are the characteristic belt ornaments from the Subbotci artefacts in Crimea and among the population of Saltovo along the Don, as well as in the legacy of Slavic settlements.

    Based on your research, it became clear that the Hungarians remained in active contact with the eastern territories even after the conquest. What exactly does this mean and why is this finding so important?

    Such distant relationships were not considered exceptional at all in the 10th century. We are talking about a period when the great trade routes connecting Central Asia and Northern Europe were created and actively used. Islamic silver coins minted in Central Asia spread all the way to Britain. What we did not know so far was that Hungarian traders also turned on the branch of the trade route called “Fémút” connecting Volga Bulgaria with the region beyond the Urals.

    Historians have long been preoccupied with the question of what language this trade was conducted in. If we think about this, we can say that Hungarians were able to learn Slavic from their neighbors, and they were able to speak the Finnish, Permian and Ugric populations of the Volga and Ural regions in their own mother tongue. This could have given them a huge advantage over Germanic or Arab traders, for whom the majority of the population of Eastern Europe spoke a completely incomprehensible language.

    What is particularly important to us, however, is that certain elements of contemporary fashion have also spread through trade routes. For example, the famous Hungarian tarso plate bags were not brought by the Hungarians to the Carpathian Basin at the end of the 9th century. The fashion of this type of object appeared only in the 10th century, and then spread far to the east outside the territory of the Hungarian Principality, in the region of the Middle Volga and Kama rivers. Archaeologists have pointed out the same for 10th and early 11th century braided belts, which in itself is a huge research topic.

    Recently, Hungarian prehistoric research in Ukraine is starting with your powerful help. What are the potentials of this research and what goals have been formulated?

    Serious opportunities! Above all, modern scientific research methods now allow for a substantive examination of cemeteries that have not previously received special attention from archaeologists. I am thinking primarily of radiocarbon dating, isotope and DNA analysis. Thanks to these possibilities, even the least “spectacular”, poorest burials can be dated and identified, for example, in terms of kinship. Previously, archaeologists could only compile and analyze a database based solely on traditional archaeological research methods. Nowadays, it is worth gathering all the available information as our analytical capabilities have expanded. We can already study not only the origins of the ancient peoples, but also their diet, their diseases, and countless other aspects.

    Secondly, the search for new excavation sites may also be considered, which may enrich our knowledge of early Hungarians with fresh finds. Here we are talking not only about the actual burial places of the Hungarians, but also about the burials of the “neighbors”: Alans, Slavs. The latest finds of the Slavic settlements of the time suggest that the Hungarian population of the second half of the 9th century had an extraordinary influence on the wearing habits and fashion of the Slavic tribes living on the left bank of the Dnieper.

    In some places, this Hungarian influence now seems more serious than the influence of the Khazar Kaganate itself! This completely new and unexpected information motivates us, but at the same time, forces us researchers to change our historical ideas about the region.

     


    https://mandiner.hu/cikk/20210725_ma...olekszij_komar

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  3. #2832
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    Waldemar, Wonomyro, it seems to me that taking into account linguistic, archaeological, palynological, anthropometric and genetic data, the Slavic homeland should be extended to the northwest to the Noteć and Odra.

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     JoeyP37 (07-29-2021)

  5. #2833
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    Waldemar, only that the Slavic substrate of the Hungarian language, or the so-called Pannonian-Slavic dialect is a West Slavic language with some features of South Slavic languages.

  6. #2834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Archaeologists searching for a royal palace in Germany have discovered a 1,000-year-old church constructed for Otto the Great (also called Otto I) near Helfta in Saxony.

    The church is located just west of the Saale, near the former Frankish Empire border (on the Frankish side), about 35 kilometres to the southwest of Krakauer Berg. Archaeologists discovered about 70 graves (from the 10-15th c.) near the church.

    Unlike in nearby Krakauer Berg (which is located on the Slavic side of the former Frankish Empire border), I would expect Germanic-like aDNA there.

    Do you know when DNA results of the first Berliners will be published? We should have two clearly different genetically groups (Slavs and Germans).

    Google translate:
    "Written sources handed down from the founding time report calls for crusades to the Slavic country east of the Elbe. These sources also indicate participants from the northwest - and, extremely exciting, from the Schwabengau east of the Harz Mountains, the region of origin of the Ascanians. They provided the leaders of those Christianizers. The Ascanian Albrecht the Bear (1100–1170) is considered to be the founder of the March of Brandenburg and the Principality of Anhalt. His descendants, the brothers Johann I and Otto III, founded numerous cities in the March of Brandenburg and promoted the expansion of Berlin / Cölln by granting privileges.

    The names of the start-ups come from the West. There was a fair of lights near the Flemish city of Ghent; There are six places with this name in Brandenburg - the transfer can be direct or indirect. The Lichtervelde, which today belongs to Berlin, was presumably founded by Flemish settlers around 1230.

    The arguments of the archaeologist therefore suggest that the first Berliners came from the north German lowlands, the Netherlands and the Harz foreland. With Ghent, Berlin / Cöllner long-distance traders soon developed barter deals: cloth for oak and the famous Berlin rye.

    Gen Harz also show traces determined with the strontium isotope analysis, even if they are still weak. Each region bears a “fingerprint”, which is characterized by the strontium isotope value and is created by river and groundwater as well as rocks. People and animals that grow up in a region ingest strontium through water and food and store it in bones and teeth in a specific amount.

    There was great hope that this measurement method would provide more precise information about the origins of the founding generations. But it wasn't that easy. Marion Tichomirowa from the Bergakademie Freiberg was [b]able to divide the Petriplatz skeletons into two main groups: the local and the new Berliners. The local group [Slavs], 37 percent of those examined, includes almost all individuals who lived between 1150 and 1200. They had the typical isotope signature of the region between the Oder and Wismar Bay. They grew up there somewhere.

    But the new Berliners [Germans], who lived between 1200 and 1250, 35 percent after all, are very homogeneous as a group - but they cannot be clearly assigned spatially. Their isotope values ​​can be found in Saxony, near Magdeburg and Salzwedel - and in the Harz! The researcher can exclude all other regions. So another lane towards Schwabengau? Ms. Tichomirova says that more samples, especially of water, would have to be examined from the region."

    https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/mens...issen-li.78583
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-29-2021 at 06:42 AM.

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  8. #2835
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    ^^
    Google translate: "For this purpose, DNA tests are carried out on teeth. Similar investigations, but with a focus on the multiple burials in Petri-Kirchhof, are carried out at the Institute for Clinical Molecular Biology at the Christian Albrechts University in Kiel. About 10 percent of all graves on Petriplatz contained the bones of more than one person. Most of the dead from multiple burials were children and young adults. In total, over 400 samples have been submitted for special tests in the past few years."

    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-29-2021 at 07:12 AM.

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  10. #2836
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Of course the Dalmatians dont exist anymore , same as prussians do not exist anymore and many other ethnicies, ,many ethnicities have disappeared due to nationalism ..........that is how nationalism works.........if Tito did not die the croats would be speaking serbian and would not exist today ............one reason the Yugoslav war happened, a serbian takeover of all of Yugoslavia


    As of 15 years ago ..EU parliament
    Solidarity fund for the restitution of property confiscated from Istrian-Dalmatian Italian exiles and for compensation for the relatives of victims of the ‘foibe’ massacres
    Answer in writing

    As a result of the persecution carried out by Marshall Tito’s totalitarian regime against Italians from Istria and Dalmatia, some 350000 of these people had to abandon all their property in the former Yugoslavia, which was expropriated or nationalised. The tragic events experienced by these families and those of the victims of the ‘foibe’ massacres were ignored for decades. It was only recently that the Italian authorities introduced ‘Remembrance Day’ in memory of these tragic events which affected thousands of innocent families.

    There have been two agreements to date — the Osimo Agreement of 1975 and the Rome Agreement of 1983 — granting Italian exiles fair compensation. However, following the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the new states, including Slovenia which will shortly become a member of the EU, did not fully meet their obligation to pay compensation.

    Croatia recently stated that it was prepared to relaunch negotiations with Italy on the issue of confiscated property.

    Will the Commission therefore indicate:
    1. whether it would be possible to set up a solidarity fund for Italian exiles from Istria and Dalmatia and for the families of victims of the ‘foibe’ massacres?
    2. what steps can be taken to ensure that Slovenia fully complies with the 1975 and 1983 agreements?


    So croatia and slovenia had to pay italy for istria and Dalmatia..............the original contract with Tito was 110Billion this was due to the UN after the war WW2, recognising Istrian Italy , Dalmatian italy and the free states of Fiume and Trieste ...........I know Slovenia and Croatia starting paying in 1994, with Slovenia fully paid for Istria , unsure of Croatia

    This is my last conversation on the subject as it is becoming too nationalistic ........we all know nationalism is 50% fake ( propaganda )
    The Italians you mention are mostly from Istria, not Dalmatia (I haven't checked your numbers):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria#Ethnicity

    In Dalmatia, ethnic Italians lived most exclusicvely in the big cities, and had nothing to do with extinct Dalmatians.

    The destiny of these Italians was tragic. Communists had no mercy to anyone (not even Croats). I am not going to advocate their behaviour towards Italian minority, but you should also be aware of the amount of terror that Italian state provided against Croats and Slovenians between 1918 and 1943 after it got in the posession of Istria and parts of Dalmatia. I see your views extremely one sided.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 07-29-2021 at 07:42 AM.

  11. #2837
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    The earlier Slavic name of Berlin was reportedly Bralin.

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  13. #2838
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, Wonomyro, it seems to me that taking into account linguistic, archaeological, palynological, anthropometric and genetic data, the Slavic homeland should be extended to the northwest to the Noteć and Odra.
    Its category being disputed I read, but we might speculate about its early and central position. In a way, the fairly clear branches of Slavic being the result of this central, connecting group of the Pannonian Slavs getting lost.

    Most of the German settler groups to the East seem to have had multiple regional origins from the West. That's what most results from any region in question suggests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Google translate:
    "They also very well illustrate the general trends of changes in the skeleton morphology in this part of Europe. Prof. Showing the examined skulls, Lorkiewicz draws attention to the changes in the shape of their brain part over the centuries described in the anthropological literature. The heads of people from the early Middle Ages were more elongated. “To this day, it is not known exactly what caused this change. Was it the effect of the reconstruction of the skull resulting from the relief of the chewing apparatus, or were some other selection factors influencing the microevolutionary processes "- says the scientist.

    Joanna Mietlińska and Justyna Karkus describe changes in the health condition of the inhabitants of the Brześć Kujawski region, visible in the morphology of skeletons. "In the early Middle Ages, people here were characterized by greater body height, good health, and rare cases of disorders," the anthropologists enumerate. “In the later Middle Ages, body height decreases and the incidence of disease increases. This state of affairs lasted until the 19th century. It results from the social changes that took place all over Poland at that time. In the early Middle Ages, people lived much less densely, and the peasants were not as subordinate to the upper classes as they were later. Over time, serfdom appeared, which imposed more and more burdens on them. The increasing density of the population combined with the lack of hygiene favored the spread of germs. As a result, epidemics of diseases such as cholera appeared more often. When potatoes from South America were introduced into cultivation, the number of cavities in the teeth increased sharply. The starch from the tubers stuck to the teeth more than that from the cereals, and in addition, the abrasive elements that mechanically removed the remains of food from the food disappeared from the food."

    "If our campaign of making 200 skeletons in digital form available on the Internet meets with a favorable response, perhaps we will digitize all 2.4 thousand. skeletons from our collection "- says Joanna Mietlińska."

    https://www.national-geographic.pl/a...e-cmentarzyska
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-29-2021 at 10:29 AM.

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  17. #2840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Something I've noticed: there's something incredibly interesting about the IBD calculations in the Ringbauer et al paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw...2_1335fig8.jpg

    Most populations share the most IBD with those right beside them and fewer IBD with those far away in a nice gradient, and for those well-behaved populations there is little deviation between predicted IBD sharing (top number in each square) and actual IBD sharing (bottom). One of the biggest exceptions are the Albanians, who share almost twice as many segments with Romanians (a country on the other side of the Balkans) as with Macedonians (who are right adjoining Albanians), and this is one of the biggest deviations in the entire plot. In general there is a band of populations, running across the Southern Balkans from Romania-Serbia-Bosnia-Macedonia-Croatia that share a lot of excess IBD with Albania, more than can be predicted from geographic position alone, and among these Romanians, who are at the end of this band on the opposite side of the Balkans, surprisingly share the second-highest number of IBD with Albanians, far more than e.g. Bulgarians, Macedonians and Montenegrins share for example.

    The Romanian connection is especially interesting given the linguistic evidence for close connections between the linguistic ancestors of the Albanians and Romanians--they share a close relationship on top of the commonalities of the Balkan Sprachbund, and there is also evidence that neither of these populations were native to their current distribution.
    It would be interesting if they could analyze Aromanians, Megleno-Romans and maybe elaborate more on internal Albanian diversity as well(if it plays any role, it may not)

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