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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    Y-chromosome markers testify against a more northeasterly homeland, if we are to characterize certain haplogroups as 'core Slavic'. Basal I2a-Slavic is most rich around the Ukrainian Carpathians and neighboring provinces to the north and east. Basal M458 is found mostly in Poland and in areas with Gothic admixture; they would have picked this up in, of course, Poland. If the northeastern homeland is correct, this means that core Slavs were mainly M558 and Z92, with Slavic I2a and M458 proliferating due to elite chieftain effects la M222 in Ireland, with those lines joining the early proto-Slavic groups as they first expanded to the southwest into Volhynia and Podolia.
    The northeastern homeland of Slavs has for now zero samples from the pre-medieval period so there is not really any point in discussing the presence/absence of M458 or I2a. Neither M458 or Slavic I2a turned up among Goths and only among some outliners in some far away places. For now most M458 clades looks more like a Proto-Slavic marker than some Z280 or Z92 clades which sometimes seem to have a Para/Proto-Baltic distribution/origin. Also M458 was found among the most eastern shifted early Slavic samples who don't require significant local/Germanic admix.

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  3. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The funny thing about the Proto-Slavic homeland theories is that they moved more to the North East with every find. Let's see where they end up in the end. I also think its possible that the Proto-Slavic population might have been structured itself, so with some groups being possibly more, others less NE shifted. But we'll only know for sure when we can connect all the dots, so far there are too few available I'd say.
    Could you specify what you mean by this? Before we had ancient DNA sample most experts located the Slavic homeland in Belarus/North Ukraine and i don't see how this has changed here or among academic experts. I don't think anyone is locating the Slavic homeland in Latvia, Lithuania or Russia.

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  5. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    The northeastern homeland of Slavs has for now zero samples from the pre-medieval period so there is not really any point in discussing the presence/absence of M458 or I2a. Neither M458 or Slavic I2a turned up among Goths and only among some outliners in some far away places. For now most M458 clades looks more like a Proto-Slavic marker than some Z280 or Z92 clades which sometimes seem to have a Para/Proto-Baltic distribution/origin. Also M458 was found among the most eastern shifted early Slavic samples who don't require significant local/Germanic admix.
    Given that R1a-STS1211 and R1a-Z92 were found among the Baltic LBA samples, but there are no R1a-M458 and I2a-L621, the most logical hypothesis would be that it was R1a-M458 and I2a-L621 that caused the separation of the Balto-Slavs into Balts and Slavs.

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  7. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Could you specify what you mean by this? Before we had ancient DNA sample most experts located the Slavic homeland in Belarus/North Ukraine and i don't see how this has changed here or among academic experts. I don't think anyone is locating the Slavic homeland in Latvia, Lithuania or Russia.
    Take for example the "Scythian peasant" samples, some would have considered the Eastern European cultures closest to Iranians and Germanic the Protoslavs already, but going by their results, they don't fit. If you use them as a proxy and let them expand westwards, even if they pick just a little bit of local admixture, or even without, they are too far away. So we're not necessarily talking about completely different macroregions, but smaller scale, down to the very core, exclusions of archaeological formations.

    Its like it is with other archaeological groups: You can have fairly "pure individuals", representing the ancestral core of a group, in one formation, and highly mixed ones in another. Just compare Bell Beakers from Germany and Britain with those in Southern France, Italy and Iberia. Obviously the same can be true, early on, for Slavs. The main reason why Slavs can hardly be deduced from the more Southern side of their ancestry is simply that Balts exist. Their sheer existence proves that Baltoslavs can hardly be derived from anything much closer to Germanics, Lusatians-Eastern Urnfield or Iranians. Because if that would be the case, they would have more of it and the history of uniparentals would be different. But the way it is, the most likely evolution of Slavs = Baltoslavic -> Pre-Slavic branch which assimilates other elements, especially from the Urnfield sphere -> Proto-Slavic expansion which assimilates even more of Eastern Urnfield sphere, Germanics and Iranians, among others -> later Slavic expansions which come into contact with all kinds of people in their modern area of distribution. One of the questions in this respect is which admixture events being still generally Slavic, or already limited to specific branches, like Uralic, later Baltic mainly for East Slavs, modern German to Czechs, Poles etc. and so on.
    E1b for example being relatively evenly distributed in all Slavs and decreases only in contact zones with non-Slavs, especially Balts and Uralics, or increases in the Balkans. So this is an example of personal interest for me, because any later contribution is unlikely to have spread so far and wide, so evenly, though we can probably not be sure without more ancient DNA. The same analysis can be done for other subclades of different haplogroups, where possible correlated with ancient DNA profiles and finds.

  10. #486
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    It is clear to me that the East Slavs cannot be Proto-Slavs because they are genetically located between the Balts and the Poles. In this situation, a question should be asked: if not the well-documented Slavization of the Balts, then what other process created the East Slavs?

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  12. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    It is clear to me that the East Slavs cannot be Proto-Slavs because they are genetically located between the Balts and the Poles. In this situation, a question should be asked: if not the well-documented Slavization of the Balts, then what other process created the East Slavs?
    At this point my understanding goes like this (subject to change with new data):
    PreSlavs in Kiev
    PreSlavs from Kiev spread around (Southern branches to Prague culture, Northern branches up to Upper Dvina -> Pskov Long Barrows, Eastern branches to Moschinskaya), that was not Proto-Slavic, that was PreSlavic spread
    Likely Prague culture was where PreSlavs became Proto-Slavs proper
    Later migration from South to North where Proto-Slavs ate up Balts, PreSlavs and different Finnics

    Archaic (Pre Proto-Slavic) Slavic loanwords are found in Finnic languages. Archaic (Pre Proto-Slavic) phonetically was close to (Western) Baltic. In toponyms such a population would leave Baltic vibe. But in Finnic loanwords they found a features that made them believe it was no more Baltic or Balto-Slavic but dialect(s) on its way to Slavic.

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  14. #488
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  16. #489
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    Nothing indicates the origin of these early Slavic Moravian paternal lines from the Dnieper:

    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-S17250/

  17. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Take for example the "Scythian peasant" samples, some would have considered the Eastern European cultures closest to Iranians and Germanic the Protoslavs already, but going by their results, they don't fit. If you use them as a proxy and let them expand westwards, even if they pick just a little bit of local admixture, or even without, they are too far away. So we're not necessarily talking about completely different macroregions, but smaller scale, down to the very core, exclusions of archaeological formations.

    Its like it is with other archaeological groups: You can have fairly "pure individuals", representing the ancestral core of a group, in one formation, and highly mixed ones in another. Just compare Bell Beakers from Germany and Britain with those in Southern France, Italy and Iberia. Obviously the same can be true, early on, for Slavs. The main reason why Slavs can hardly be deduced from the more Southern side of their ancestry is simply that Balts exist. Their sheer existence proves that Baltoslavs can hardly be derived from anything much closer to Germanics, Lusatians-Eastern Urnfield or Iranians. Because if that would be the case, they would have more of it and the history of uniparentals would be different. But the way it is, the most likely evolution of Slavs = Baltoslavic -> Pre-Slavic branch which assimilates other elements, especially from the Urnfield sphere -> Proto-Slavic expansion which assimilates even more of Eastern Urnfield sphere, Germanics and Iranians, among others -> later Slavic expansions which come into contact with all kinds of people in their modern area of distribution. One of the questions in this respect is which admixture events being still generally Slavic, or already limited to specific branches, like Uralic, later Baltic mainly for East Slavs, modern German to Czechs, Poles etc. and so on.
    E1b for example being relatively evenly distributed in all Slavs and decreases only in contact zones with non-Slavs, especially Balts and Uralics, or increases in the Balkans. So this is an example of personal interest for me, because any later contribution is unlikely to have spread so far and wide, so evenly, though we can probably not be sure without more ancient DNA. The same analysis can be done for other subclades of different haplogroups, where possible correlated with ancient DNA profiles and finds.
    Proto-Slavs in my opinion were unlikely very heterogeneous in terms of autosomal admix based on their material culture and early Slavic genomes. Rather they seem to fall in a tight cluster between modern day Lithuanians, Belarusians and North Ukrainians. We are not talking about nomadic groups like Scythians or Imperial Romans, who could have genetically very different subgroups in a population, rather about a small and quite isolated NE European population that rapidly exploded in population numbers and expanded in all directions from their homeland. Also if the earliest Slavs had Germanic/Goth admix then why Russians and Belarusians don't show any of it except if they have recent Ukrainian/Polish/German ancestry.

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