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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, I meant specifically:

    "...there is a pronounced genetic proximity between Czechs and their immediate Germanic neighbors in the west that could be attributed to the pre-Slavic gene pool formation of Central-East Europeans".

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0135820
    That paper was heavily criticized, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ng-Populations

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    Do you know any paper that has not been criticized?

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    Waldemar, the general point is that the expansion of Prague culture was more of a cultural than a demographic phenomenon. The Prague culture initially covered the upper Dnieper. In those days, the population of this area must have at least genetically looked like the today's Balts, although it could have been even more shifted towards the Baltic BA. If we were to accepted with mass migration, the then inhabitants of historical and present West Slavic lands would have to look genetically like today's French in those days. But then two problems arise, as today's East Slavs also have this apparent Celtic admixture: 1) genetical Celtic people must have reached far beyond the Dnieper; 2) somewhere far to the east there must have been a sharp genetic boundary between the Celtic and Baltic genomes. That is why the only sensible conclusion is that the Western Slavs come mainly from the old gene pool of Central Europe.
    Last edited by ambron; 05-30-2021 at 07:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, the general point is that the expansion of Prague culture was more of a cultural than a demographic phenomenon. The Prague culture initially covered the upper Dnieper. In those days, the population of this area must have at least genetically looked like the today's Balts, although it could have been even more shifted towards the Baltic BA. If we were to accepted with mass migration, the then inhabitants of historical and present West Slavic lands would have to look genetically like today's French in those days. But then two problems arise, as today's East Slavs also have this apparent Celtic admixture: 1) genetical Celtic people must have reached far beyond the Dnieper; 2) somewhere far to the east there must have been a sharp genetic boundary between the Celtic and Baltic genomes. That is why the only sensible conclusion is that the Western Slavs come mainly from the old gene pool of Central Europe.
    It's very improbable that the spread of Slavic languages (if we accept Prague-Korchak culture as Early Slavs) was not accompanied by population movements, compare modern Balkan populations with IA/LBA period Balkan samples.

    Contemporary Balkan ethnic groups are shifted towards East-Slavs/Poles on any genetic PCA plot compared with aDNA from the same region.

     
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, the general point is that the expansion of Prague culture was more of a cultural than a demographic phenomenon.
    To be honest, I really like the theory of Slavic expansion presented by former autochonists. Military conquest of previous local populations (post-Celtic, post-Germanic, post-Roman, etc.) by Slavic warriors associated with the Prague-type "culture" or rather warfare who came from "the Polish-Ukrainian area north of the Carpathian arch" (perfectly in line with the location of Jordanes's Venethi or Udolph's "centre of Old Slavic names").
    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-30-2021 at 08:26 AM.

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    Altvred, all genetic studies show that the Slavization of the Balkans was indeed associated with a larger demographic movement (I was talking about Western Slavs). But this movement did not come from the upper Dnieper, but from Central Europe, which is why in your PCA we see a shift towards Poles / Ukrainians. Therefore, everywhere in the Balkans we see a Polish admixture:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41614

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    Waldemar, I really like this theory too. Just only note that she excludes mass migration and that the gene pool of the Polish-Ukrainian border is Central European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Altvred, all genetic studies show that the Slavization of the Balkans was indeed associated with a larger demographic movement (I was talking about Western Slavs). But this movement did not come from the upper Dnieper, but from Central Europe, which is why in your PCA we see a shift towards Poles / Ukrainians. Therefore, everywhere in the Balkans we see a Polish admixture:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41614
    I wouldn't say that the pattern in that particular PCA I posted or any genetic data we have would suggest that Central European admixture rather than Eastern-European/Baltic-like arrived with the Slavs in the Balkans.

    Also, it's not 'Polish', 'Ukrainian', or another modern population admixture; I believe that's a misnomer. These are just proxies for early Slavs that now we have actual aDNA for- from Szolad, Krakauer Berg, and Pohanskoe.

    And speaking purely in terms of genetics, I don't think Poles and especially Ukrainians are Central Europeans. Outliers aside, you have a vast genetic continuum between Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and West Russians. In my opinion, the autosomal profile of Central Europe is Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Austrian.

    Basically, a mixture of Pre-Slavic Central Europeans, Slavs, and to a degree Paleo-Balkan.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    And speaking purely in terms of genetics, I don't think Poles and especially Ukrainians are Central Europeans. Outliers aside, you have a vast genetic continuum between Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and West Russians. In my opinion, the autosomal profile of Central Europe is Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Austrian.
    I think we can't say anything about all Poles in general. Polish average is made of Poles, who are genetically fully Slavic and of Poles whom Slavic ancestors were genetically affected by German colonization and ancient Eastern Germanic tribes, so this average is made of genetically different Poles. You can see that about half of Polish samples Global25 are basically East Slavic-like. If Polish average is modelled as 87% Ukrainian and 13% German it means some Poles are close to being 100% Slavic, while other are modelled as 3/4 Ukrainian and 1/4 German, which makes them very close to Czechs and Slovaks.

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