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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1451
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    Quote Originally Posted by aganmu View Post
    Does "Tuchola Forest" have any relation to Tokharoi?
    I don't think so. But my aunt's family is from Tuchola, I should test their DNA.

    Tuchola is neither Kashubia nor Kociewie, but a separate ethnographic region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Parastais, you are wrong. I repeat:

    Av2 is a genetic mix of Poles and Balts - and we will not run away from this fact.

    The scenario you presented is ruled out by the genetic gradient. Taking your point of view, we would have to assume that this gradient did not exist until the Middle Ages. Then we would have to assume that there was a sharp genetic boundary somewhere between HRV IA and LVA BA. Where!
    Repeating lies many times does not make them true.

    Why do you need sharp genetic boundary between HRV_IA and LVA_BA?
    You got LVA_BA and EST_BA in Baltics - a substrate for East Balts
    You got LTU_BA and Av2 type guys South Lithuania, Belarus, Kiev culture
    You got HRV_IA type guys in Balkans and/or Romania
    You got East Germanics who pushed out and/or assimilated whoever was living in Poland before
    You got Hunns who destroyed East Germanics and their vassals and opened door for Pre Slavic/Early Slavic Av2 in Kiev to spread towards HRV_IA to create some “Common Slavic” profile in Prague culture
    You got Common Slavic profile spread around Balkans, East Germany and back migrating into Ukraine and Russia

    Something like this is how I see it in big lines.

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  5. #1453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^
    Let's add that Poles from the region around Sztum - to the east of Kociewie - might be descended from Polonized Pomesanians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomesanians

    This map shows the distribution of ethnic Poles (green colour) in areas around Sztum (German: Stuhm) in year 1910:



    They remained in the area after WW2. In 1952 pre-war autochthons were 41% of inhabitants of Sztum County, including by gmina:

    Gmina Mikołajki - 1920 (ca. 80%) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko%C5%82ajki_Pomorskie
    Gmina Stary Targ - 2073 (ca. 66%) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stary_Targ
    Gmina Straszewo - 1277 (ca. 63%) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasz...an_Voivodeship
    Sztum City - 2124 (ca. 42%) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sztum
    Sztum Countryside - 1131 (ca. 47%)
    Gmina Szropy - 690 (ca. 34%)
    Gmina Gościszewo - 509 (ca. 24%)
    Dzierzgoń City - 380 (ca. 19%)
    Gmina Dzierzgoń Wieś - 260 ca. (14%)
    Gmina Jasna - 120 (ca. 6%)

    TOTAL - 10484 (ca. 41% of all inhabitants)

    Data from: http://www.polska1918-89.pl/pdf/polo...yk-po,2186.pdf (Tabela 1. Udział liczbowy i procentowy ludności rodzimej...)
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-12-2021 at 05:58 PM.

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    This PCA best shows the Av2's parents - what the ancestral populations looked like for the population represented by Av2:

    https://postimg.cc/sQvHgTWb

    So they will be Poles and Balts. However, if we assume that one of the ancestral populations for Av2 was Baltic BA (not included on this PCA, but actually distant on the right from Baltic), then the other could only be the Romance population (proportional distance on the PCA). At the same time, however, we see a genetic gradient across the Romace-Baltic BA cline. However, assuming Av2 is a mix between Romance and Baltic BA, all this grdient disappears. Only Romace and Baltic BA remain. So for these two populations to mix and create the Av2 population, there would have to be somewwhere a sharp genetic border between Romace and Baltic BA at which Av2 could form.

    I hope I was able to explain it clearly.

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  9. #1455
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    This PCA best shows the Av2's parents - what the ancestral populations looked like for the population represented by Av2:

    https://postimg.cc/sQvHgTWb

    So they will be Poles and Balts. However, if we assume that one of the ancestral populations for Av2 was Baltic BA (not included on this PCA, but actually distant on the right from Baltic), then the other could only be the Romance population (proportional distance on the PCA). At the same time, however, we see a genetic gradient across the Romace-Baltic BA cline. However, assuming Av2 is a mix between Romance and Baltic BA, all this grdient disappears. Only Romace and Baltic BA remain. So for these two populations to mix and create the Av2 population, there would have to be somewwhere a sharp genetic border between Romace and Baltic BA at which Av2 could form.

    I hope I was able to explain it clearly.
    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    This PCA best shows the Av2's parents - what the ancestral populations looked like for the population represented by Av2:

    https://postimg.cc/sQvHgTWb

    So they will be Poles and Balts. However, if we assume that one of the ancestral populations for Av2 was Baltic BA (not included on this PCA, but actually distant on the right from Baltic), then the other could only be the Romance population (proportional distance on the PCA). At the same time, however, we see a genetic gradient across the Romace-Baltic BA cline. However, assuming Av2 is a mix between Romance and Baltic BA, all this grdient disappears. Only Romace and Baltic BA remain. So for these two populations to mix and create the Av2 population, there would have to be somewwhere a sharp genetic border between Romace and Baltic BA at which Av2 could form.

    I hope I was able to explain it clearly.
    Few points
    1) this method might point towards genetic profile of Av1 father. Although maybe some colleagues here who tested G25 for them, their mom and dad, may comment whether if straight line is drawn, they are in the middle? if yes, we can trust that.
    2) but it is really stupid to say that Av2 is a mix of her kid + someone else )) absolutely illogical. If I got a kid with Chinese babe, it would not make me a mix of Han Latvian and whatever is needed to compensate )) rather than two ordinary Latvians.. ))
    3) you keep claiming that Belarusian genetics are result of documented Slav assimilation of Balts. Genes actually confirm that:
    "sample": "Test1:Belarusian",
    "fit": 1.5517,
    "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 75,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 12.5,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 12.5,
    You see - they are 75% Early Slavic and they got extra 25% genes from Balt related populations. Given Balts got also some solid levels of “Early Slavic”, likely more than 25% of their genetics is from Balts. Simple, is not it?
    4) Av2 profile likely appeared in Kiev culture (post Zarubinets, Central Euro Bastarns, some Euro “Scythians”, forest “Baltoid” cultures). There are no ancient samples to properly estimate mix (no Bastarns, no more Southern LTU_BA, etc), but this gives good fit
    "Test1:HUN_Avar_Szolad",
    "fit": 1.7937,
    "Scythian_HUN": 40,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 22.5,
    "Baltic_LTU_BA": 21.67,
    "Scythian_UKR": 15.83,
    Last edited by parastais; 06-13-2021 at 06:42 AM.

  10. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Few points
    1) this method might point towards genetic profile of Av1 father. Although maybe some colleagues here who tested G25 for them, their mom and dad, may comment whether if straight line is drawn, they are in the middle? if yes, we can trust that.
    I've seen such cases, but the child can often be shifted away from both parents, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    2) but it is really stupid to say that Av2 is a mix of her kid + someone else )) absolutely illogical. If I got a kid with Chinese babe, it would not make me a mix of Han Latvian and whatever is needed to compensate )) rather than two ordinary Latvians.. ))
    av1 and 2 are mother and daughter, but we can't know which is which.

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  12. #1457
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    Parastais, it is the PCA that shows us what Av2 parents would have to look like if historically known populations were involved in the formation of this population. Since there is no historically known population lying behind the Balts on the PCA, one of the parents of Av2 would have to be a genetic Pole. However, if we assume that one of the ancestral populations for Av2 was the historically unknown Baltic BA population, I have already presented a further scenario of events (acute genetic border).

  13. #1458
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Parastais, it is the PCA that shows us what Av2 parents would have to look like if historically known populations were involved in the formation of this population. Since there is no historically known population lying behind the Balts on the PCA, one of the parents of Av2 would have to be a genetic Pole. However, if we assume that one of the ancestral populations for Av2 was the historically unknown Baltic BA population, I have already presented a further scenario of events (acute genetic border).
    Of course not. I already provided you a genetic mix of different ancients that could produce Av2.

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  15. #1459
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    Parastais, I wrote here before that samples from the Kiev culture will probably never appear, so I prefer to rely on what we have, because otherwise the discussion will never end.

    The concept of the Bastarnaes, who brought Western elements into the early Slavic genome, undermines the foundation of the Prypiat theory, in which the Pripyat marshes isolated the Slavs from external demographic and cultural influences.

    You see that the early Slavs did not come from Belarus, but rather went to Belarus:

    "sample": "Test1:Belarusian",
    "fit": 1.5517,
    "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 75,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 12.5,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 12.5,

    Note that with this model you confirm my words, because you introduce into this model typical Central European genomes:

    "Test1:HUN_Avar_Szolad",
    "fit": 1.7937,
    "Scythian_HUN": 40,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 22.5,
    "Baltic_LTU_BA": 21.67,
    "Scythian_UKR": 15.83,

    DA197 R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340 (xYP371,P278.2)
    Target: Scythian_HUNA197
    Distance: 1.3804% / 0.01380425
    38.8 HUN_Baden_LCA
    33.2 Baltic_EST_BA
    25.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
    2.0 POL_Globular_Amphora
    0.4 SWE_Motala_HG

    scy009: R1b-P312>U152>L2 (P312+, U152?, L2+)?
    Target: Scythian_UKR:scy009
    Distance: 2.0386% / 0.02038588
    41.2 Baltic_IA
    23.0 DEU_Welzin_BA
    21.2 Hungary_BA
    8.8 Germanic
    5.8 Balkan_IA

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  17. #1460
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    Yeap, and Scythian_UKR shows that such genes were already in Ukraine. Every ingredient needed to produce Av1 was in Ukraine, so no need for some eternal Poles to come into mix..

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