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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    When the data from Southern/Southeastern Poland will be available?

    About Northern/Northwestern Poland...

    "The Migration Period (5th–6th century)

    The maps with palynological data for the Migration Period show forest regeneration and a significant decrease in anthropogenic vegetation in the western part of the territory under review. The proportion of cereal pollen falls dramatically or it disappears altogether. The palynological record of the settlement downturn is particularly obvious in the central and eastern parts of Pomorze, especially in Pojezierze Kaszubskie and Pojezierze Chełmińskie and in those sites in Wielkopolska which in the Late Roman Period were settled mainly by Wielbark Culture populations.

    In some sites in the western part of the territory studied, the decline of anthropogenic indicators is less prominent, which may be indicative of scattered settlement enclaves within otherwise depopulated regions. One of them is the site in Nizina Pyrzycka, where the proportion of anthropogenic indicators and cereals for the time-window of ca. AD 400–600 is even higher than in the preceding period (Figs 18, 20 and 22). This may be a trace of the Dębczyno Group settlement, whose presence in the area has been documented archaeologically. An interesting record has been obtained from Lake Godziszewskie, situated not far from the town of Pruszcz Gdański, where a large settlement cluster of the Wielbark Culture was functioning in the Roman Period. A fairly high proportion of anthropogenic indicators, and especially of cereal pollen, suggests settlement activity in the area even in the Migration Period. Archaeological data obtained up to now indicate that the latest burials in Wielbark burial grounds in Pruszcz Gdański took place in the mid-5th c. (Site 5). Relatively high indicators of deforestation and a considerable proportion of anthropogenic indicators and cereal pollen in the sections correlating with the Migration Period are also characteristic of the profiles from Lake Gopło in Kujawy and Lake Wonieść in southern Wielkopolska. In this case, there is again no contradiction between palynological data and archaeological sources. The latter suggest that Przeworsk Culture settlement lasted well into the 5th c. in some parts of Wielkopolska, despite the demographic crisis. At the same time, the oldest early Slavic settlements may have developed here as early as the late 5th or the 6th c."

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Millennium_AD
    Do we have similar studies covering territories of Ukraine and Belarus? Is there any time gap between Kiev and Penkovka cultures or is there a smooth transition from one to another confirmed with palynological data and radiocarbon dating? What are the earliest Penkovka sites? Kolochin culture is considered Baltic or Slavic?
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-15-2021 at 05:49 AM.

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  3. #1502
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I seem to detect a strong anti-Western bias among some Russians here, that they have some sort of complex about the people who brought Slavic languages being from west of the Dnieper, or at least the male haplogroups associated with Slavic migration, especially those deemed core Slavic. Whereas you can assign the autosomal DNA, much of the R1a, the mitochondrials to the Kiev Culture, the haplogroups that are most connected with the event causing the bifurcation of Slavs from Balts, are from the west. Many Russian men are M458>L1029>YP417, and it is a very important East/Southeastern Slav male line. Upstream clades usually point to the location of the origin and its spread. Here is a tree of some basal clades of YP417, those lacking the later YP418 mutation.Attachment 45173

    Slovakia, Lvov Ukraine, Brest Belarus, and the most eastern being Zhitomir, Ukraine. See a pattern? West to east! Now you can state that L1029 was not an original Slavic haplogroup, that it was in origin Gothic, Bastarnae, or Free Dacian, or maybe even Eastern Celtic. And I could do the same for I2a-Din.
    These are both not really valid and relevant arguments. There is not anti-western bias here and nobody claims Proto-Slavs came from Russia or that Russians are "pure" Slavs with 5000 years of direct continuity in Russia. Neither Belarusians or Ukrainians are pure Slavs and necessarily have more Proto-Slavic ancestry than Poles. That Proto-Slavs came from the Kiev culture is consensus among scholars and not just among scholars in East Europe. Saying that there is 5000 years of full genetic continuity in Central Europe and that Slavs orginate in Central Europe because Poles most be a priori "pure Slavs" sounds much more like nationalist wishful thinking.

    Modern day distrubution of I2a-Din and M458 if anything supports a homeland in the Kiev culture because both North Ukrainians and Belarusians are rich in both lineages. M458 is higher in Poles and I2a-Din in terms of frequeny higher in the balkan but this can be rather explained with founder effects than with M458 orginating in Poland or I2a-Din orginating in Bosnia because it is highest in Bosnia. Nevertheless M458 and I2a-Din were not found among ancient Goth or any other pre-Slavic migration period samples so it very unlikely came from Central Europe around 200-500 A.D even if the lines arrived in the Iron Age from Central Europe but this would happen long before the formation of Proto-Slavs and is another story.

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  5. #1503
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    Many Russian men are M458>L1029>YP417, and it is a very important East/Southeastern Slav male line. Upstream clades usually point to the location of the origin and its spread. Here is a tree of some basal clades of YP417, those lacking the later YP418 mutation.Attachment 45173

    Slovakia, Lvov Ukraine, Brest Belarus, and the most eastern being Zhitomir, Ukraine. See a pattern? West to east! (...) And I could do the same for I2a-Din.
    Yes, it looks like basal clades for most of Slavic Y-DNA lines point to "the Polish-Ukrainian area north of the Carpathian arch".

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....482#post773482

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  7. #1504
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    Joey, in fact, academic Russian science has always taken a clear position on this matter - the Slavs migrated from the Vistula to the east. Therefore, among other things, there is no alleged consensus about the origin of the Slavs from the Kievan culture, as Coldmountains says.

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  9. #1505
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    Arza more wrote, but I'll try to simplify it:

    We are talking about the Slavic EEF, which was the cause of the Westernization of the Balts and the Eastern Slavs. This component appears in some Ukrainian Scythians, but is derived from Central European Scythians. The Ukrainian Scythians have the Slavic EEF, but they also have an Asian admixture, Z93 and P312. If the Ukrainian Scythians were the cause of the Westernization of Balts and East Slavs, Balts and East Slavs (and early Slavs) would have a lot of Asian admixture, Z93 and P312.

  10. #1506
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Have to say that the relevance of Siberian admixture in Scythians to the proto-Slavic homeland debate escapes me, I also fail to see the logic in claiming Balto-Slavic ancestry of Scythians buried on the banks of the Dnieper came all the way from Central Europe rather than from somewhere further North up the Dnieper.

     



    Slovaks and other West-Slavs can be represented as a mixture of 'Baltic' and pre-Slavic Iron-Age Central Europeans; in fact, Slovaks could be modeled with just AV2, although the probability for that is lower than an admixture event occurring.

     




    Attempting to create a model of Slovak ancestry with just the pre-Slavic IA Central Europeans results in badly fitting, statistically improbable scenarios.

     


    I have two questions for people arguing for a Central European origin:

    1. There is an undeniable correlation with aDNA between the archeologically verifiable presence of Early/Medieval Slavs and the appearance of AV2-type genetic signal in the region.

    People buried in Pohansko, Krakauer Berg, Brandysek show a definite genetic shift towards AV2 when contrasted with more ancient individuals of the same area (in the case of Pohansko, the very North-Sea Germanic profile of pre-Slavic LIB2).

    If the earliest Slavs autosomally were similar to Central Europeans, how does one interpret the genetic discontinuity separating Iron-Age populations and ancient and modern Slavs?

    What rational explanation is there for the plethora of ancient genomic data available that presents a clear genetic separation between pre-Slavic and Slavic samples from the same country?


    2. If this specific genetic signal (Balto-Slavic drift, or however you want to term it) is absent in Central Europe and appears first in aDNA from central Ukraine and Lithuania (Spiginas2 is also the most ancient CTS1211), isn't the more parsimonious and logical model one that has this genetic signature move East-to-West rather than the other way around?
    Most of the argumentation left for the Central European homeland here is now based on circular and nationalist reasoning ( "My people are pure hence there was no migration"/"Modern day borders correlate entirely with borders of ancient cultures"). To be honest it is getting tiring and reminds me very much of the OIT theory. I guess if Belarus and Ukraine were still part of the PLC you would have no opposition against the Kyiv culture origin because then it would be within the borders of their country.

    If there is a significant genetic substrate/adstrate from Central Europe it likely has rather something to do with Central-European elements of Zarubinets and long predates the formation of Proto-Slavs. Neither Y-DNA nor autosomal points to significant admixture from Goths or Central Europeans among earliest Pre/Proto-Slavs around 200-500 A.D. Else East Slavs should show up it too and the often proposed Gothic origin of I2a-Din or M458 is not supported by any ancient DNA so far. Also based on the TMRCA of the Slavic specific I2a and M458 clades the assimilation of these clades happened before 0 A.D

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  12. #1507
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    Coldmountains, the problem is not where the Slavic culture comes from, but where the biological roots of today's Slavic nations lie.

  13. #1508
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    "In Greater Poland, there is a long period of intensive growth that begins in the first decades of the sixth century AD (after 500) and continues at the same pace until the middle of the tenth century. The starting point of this trend is visible not only in the accelerated growth of the cumulative curve of cereals, but also in the appearance of a new cereal, barley. Rye was to become another very important cereal type in this period, and it remained so until the end of the early modern period. Its proportional values started rising slowly even before the sixth century, but it is from this moment onward that its expansion becomes particularly intensive."





    https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5458...aper_54582.pdf
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-15-2021 at 07:24 AM.

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  15. #1509
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    What about this area???


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  17. #1510
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    Waldemar, palynology is the most important because archeology is such a stroke of luck. Settlements may or may not leave material traces, an archaeologist may or may not find them, and when there are grains pollens, there are also people who grow these grains.

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