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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1511
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I seem to detect a strong anti-Western bias among some Russians here, that they have some sort of complex about the people who brought Slavic languages being from west of the Dnieper, or at least the male haplogroups associated with Slavic migration, especially those deemed core Slavic. Whereas you can assign the autosomal DNA, much of the R1a, the mitochondrials to the Kiev Culture, the haplogroups that are most connected with the event causing the bifurcation of Slavs from Balts, are from the west. Many Russian men are M458>L1029>YP417, and it is a very important East/Southeastern Slav male line. Upstream clades usually point to the location of the origin and its spread. Here is a tree of some basal clades of YP417, those lacking the later YP418 mutation.Attachment 45173

    Slovakia, Lvov Ukraine, Brest Belarus, and the most eastern being Zhitomir, Ukraine. See a pattern? West to east! Now you can state that L1029 was not an original Slavic haplogroup, that it was in origin Gothic, Bastarnae, or Free Dacian, or maybe even Eastern Celtic. And I could do the same for I2a-Din.
    Ok, I've tried to remain as impartial as possible so far in this thread but apparently, trying to base an argument on available data from ancient DNA would imply that I carry some political bias. I think it's unfortunate this has to descend to the personal level, but..

    I want to clarify 2 things:

    1. I don't have a bias against the 'west'; in fact, I live and have lived there since age 10. I was born in Uzbekistan and never lived in Russia aside from visiting relatives - who also moved there from Central Asia during the early 00s. I don't have Russian citizenship. I have a Russian flag under my profile that doesn't imply my posts are somehow politically motivated to support the Russian state any more than that Timurid flag I have on there implies I'm supporting the Timurid Empire.

    2. The proposed Slavic homeland most people argue for would straddle the borders of modern-day Belarus, Northern Ukraine, and possibly Eastern Poland. What underhanded reason would Russians have for arguing for a Slavic homeland somewhere in Ukraine? I don't know if you've been watching the news for the last 6 years, but there is a frozen conflict between Russia and Ukraine.


    To get back to the matter at hand, there is no doubt that Slavs came to Russia from the west, but the question is how far west that was. You're basing your argument on modern-day Y-DNA distribution, which is often not truly indicative of the way things looked 2000 years ago. Nowadays, Z93 is very rare in the Forrest-steppe region of Eastern Europe but plentiful in South Asia. In ancient DNA records, it's completely reversed, with the earliest and most numerous finds being from Eastern Europe, and only later Z93 is seen moving further east and later south.

    We don't have ancient DNA that would strongly support such a pattern for the Slavic-specific Y-DNA. Even if M458 originated in Germany or Western Poland - the reality is that the Y-chromosome doesn't reflect 99% of a person's genetic ancestors, the autosomal chromosomes do.

    The Balto-Slavic drift is absent in all pre-Slavic central European samples, and it appears when Slavs arrive. If Slavs originated in Central Europe why did they carry this genetic signature that first appears in the Baltics and Eastern Europe? There hasn't been a single solid argument made to explain this.

    I have zero vested interest in proving Slavs originated from Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, or the surface of the moon - so far I've only referenced the available ancient and modern DNA data.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    These are both not really valid and relevant arguments. There is not anti-western bias here and nobody claims Proto-Slavs came from Russia or that Russians are "pure" Slavs with 5000 years of direct continuity in Russia. Neither Belarusians or Ukrainians are pure Slavs and necessarily have more Proto-Slavic ancestry than Poles. That Proto-Slavs came from the Kiev culture is consensus among scholars and not just among scholars in East Europe. Saying that there is 5000 years of full genetic continuity in Central Europe and that Slavs orginate in Central Europe because Poles most be a priori "pure Slavs" sounds much more like nationalist wishful thinking.

    Modern day distrubution of I2a-Din and M458 if anything supports a homeland in the Kiev culture because both North Ukrainians and Belarusians are rich in both lineages. M458 is higher in Poles and I2a-Din in terms of frequeny higher in the balkan but this can be rather explained with founder effects than with M458 orginating in Poland or I2a-Din orginating in Bosnia because it is highest in Bosnia. Nevertheless M458 and I2a-Din were not found among ancient Goth or any other pre-Slavic migration period samples so it very unlikely came from Central Europe around 200-500 A.D even if the lines arrived in the Iron Age from Central Europe but this would happen long before the formation of Proto-Slavs and is another story.
    M458 is found in ~800BC Switzerland/Germany ( MX265 )

    L1029 found in IA Bohemia (yet to be confirmed).

    Not only are there M458 “pre-slavic migration” period samples, but they are all west of Ukraine.

    Not that I’m saying that rules out Ukraine as homeland of M458… only that I have to see aDNA not only from Kiev culture… but the local Ukrainian archeological cultures that preceded it (Milograd?). Otherwise, it can be argued western sources introduced M458/L1029/L260 to Kiev culture. Or at least certain subclades.

    Or do you mean M458 and I2a-Din haven’t been found together in pre-Slavic era samples?

    Edit: I see you mean migration era only (300-500AD)? If so, we can still learn a bit from aDNA samples dated 300BC-300AD, no?
    Last edited by Brent.B; 06-15-2021 at 01:46 PM.

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  5. #1513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    M458 is found in ~800BC Switzerland/Germany ( MX265 )

    L1029 found in IA Bohemia (yet to be confirmed).

    Not only are there M458 “pre-slavic migration” period samples, but they are all west of Ukraine.

    Not that I’m saying that rules out Ukraine as homeland of M458… only that I have to see aDNA not only from Kiev culture… but the local Ukrainian archeological cultures that preceded it (Milograd?). Otherwise, it can be argued western sources introduced M458/L1029/L260 to Kiev culture. Or at least certain subclades.

    Or do you mean M458 and I2a-Din haven’t been found together in pre-Slavic era samples?

    Edit: I see you mean migration era only (300-500AD)? If so, we can still learn a bit from aDNA samples dated 300BC-300AD, no?
    I was talking about the migration period and MX265 is a clear genetic outliner with ancestry from the East. Actually him showing both M458 and eastern/Balto-Slavic drift in such a faraway place makes an association of M458 with a population rich in Balto-Slavic drift during the Iron Age more likely. Another story would be to find M458 among multiple non-outliners in a population lacking Balto-Slavic and being of full Central European/Germanic/Celtic origin. Like mentioned before even if M458 originated far in the west somewhere in the Iron Age it would be already assimilated before even Proto-Slavs formed so an origin of M458 in Central Europe is not proving a Central European origin of Slavs in 500 A.D.

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  7. #1514
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    I do not understand why some colleagues persistently repeat the false information that there was no Balto-Slavic drift in Central Europe before the Middle Ages. There are actually a very large number of such samples, and I have listed them here several times. If they have much less Balto-Slavic drift than the Baltic BA, it speaks even more for their genetic Slavic pattern, as a high share of Balto-Slavic drift is a typical Baltic pattern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    I do not understand why some colleagues persistently repeat the false information that there was no Balto-Slavic drift in Central Europe before the Middle Ages. There are actually a very large number of such samples, and I have listed them here several times. If they have much less Balto-Slavic drift than the Baltic BA, it speaks even more for their genetic Slavic pattern, as a high share of Balto-Slavic drift is a typical Baltic pattern.
    I think the best case you have so far is the Moravian sample which is at least in part Slavic-like. But that's rather close in time to known Slavic migrations and can be attributed to early contacts, probably. But once we have more Lusatian, non-Germanic, non-Slavic proper samples from CEE and especially Poland, we might come to a final verdict.

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    Riverman, this is a really large number of Bronze and Iron Age samples.

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    We have to define fisrt what is Balto-Slavic drift exactly?
    Is there any software except G25 which can be used to detect Balto-Slavic drift ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    We have to define fisrt what is Balto-Slavic drift exactly?
    Is there any software except G25 which can be used to detect Balto-Slavic drift ?
    Do you have any clue as to why there is no discussion about celtic/germanic/italic drift? Why only the balto/slavic show this feature. No intention of polemics. I'm just asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Do you have any clue as to why there is no discussion about celtic/germanic/italic drift? Why only the balto/slavic show this feature. No intention of polemics. I'm just asking.
    The others are too similar to each other, whereas what's special about Balto-Slavic drift is that its
    a) more different
    b) in many regions only widespread with actual Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Do you have any clue as to why there is no discussion about celtic/germanic/italic drift? Why only the balto/slavic show this feature. No intention of polemics. I'm just asking.
    G25 was built to be especially sensitive to Balto-Slavic drift:

    https://bga101.blogspot.com/2018/08/...-european.html

    Even though the Global25 focuses on world-wide human genetic diversity, it can also reveal a lot of information about genetic substructures within continental regions.

    Several of the dimensions, for instance, reflect Balto-Slavic-specific genetic drift. I ensured that this would be the case by running a lot of Slavic groups in the analysis. A useful by-product of this strategy is that the Global25 is very good at exposing relatively recent intra-European genetic variation.

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