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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    Why? Do all people in the region need to match in order to be native from there? Why can’t there be diversity within cultures? Balto-Slavic drift would only be instructive here if it was limited to a small area… and from the aDNA so far this does not appear to be the case.

    What about situations where distinct population live next to each other for hundreds of years? If that sounds unrealistic, consider the American south from 1600-1960.


    Because populations can be defined by the fact that there is panmixia within the group. A population that originated as an admixture between 2 highly contrasting founding groups will be very homogeneous with, say 5 generations of mixing (~125 years).

    Unless you have a very unusual theory that, say, a Balkan EEF-rich group and a Lusatian-remnant-type group and a Baltic-like group mixed together into a proto-Slavic speaking population and this proto-Slavic speaking population expanded less than 50 years later, before things homogenized very much, and that this diversity in the Proto-slavs was somehow preserved across multiple centuries from LIB to POH and as the group expanded, allowing for all three types to be recovered from multiple sites across Eastern Europe. I guess this scenario is possible, but why accept something like that and reject something much more in line with what we've seen before, like with the proto-Germanics? Who were very homogeneous and were clearly the result of a long period of independent linguistic development and genetic drift/population isolation, before expanding in early centuries AD, such that their genetic signature is readily identifiable. Especially when IBD signals suggest that Slavic populations experienced a genetic contribution from a highly bottlenecked, rapidly expanding population with the bottleneck coinciding with the breakup of Proto-Slavic (dated linguistically) and with the admixture dates coinciding with the Slavicisation of each region? I don't know why you would reject this scenario that is sociolinguistically plausible and supported by multiple lines of evidence and support something more convoluted and less parsimonious.
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  3. #1532
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    Patrick J. Geary - "There's a lot of supposedly Longobard burials there and as we look at the material culture of people that the archaeologists say this is clearly a Germanic burial, we find that their genetic is completely Italian. So are these people local guards? Are they part of the army? Are they under certain circumstances Longobards and under other circumstances Romans? Do they move back and forth? Are there multiple identities?"



    -------------------------------------

    "Interestingly the [Avar] elite group does not exhibit a genetic connection to the previously investigated small Avar period population from southeast Hungary either, because the latter shows predominantly Eastern European maternal genetic and also different archaeological characters with Eastern European traditions (catacomb graves and partial animal depositions for e.g.). The genetic difference correlates well with the cultural and anthropological differences of this group and shows that the conquering Avar population was heterogeneous and differed in genetic makeup from the local population.

    One sample in our dataset (HC9) comes from this population, and both his mtDNA (T1a1b) and Y chromosome (R1a) support Eastern European connections. The observed within-Avar genetic differences correlate well with the cultural and anthropological differences of this group and demonstrate the heterogeneity of the Avar population."





    -------------------------------------

    "Pitvaros-Víztározó - 225 graves of the late Avar cemetery on the outskirts of the Pitvaros village (Csongrád County, Hungary) was excavated between 1993–1996 by Lívia Bende. On the basis of the special burial customs the community, which has used this cemetery, seems to have been the descendants of the population of the Eastern European origin known in the early Avar period. The small community, which has opened the cemetery, stretched from the western part of the Transtisza region to the area inside the rivers around the middle of the 7th century. The community kept their special burial customs all the way (catacomb graves, partial sacrificial animals etc.). The cemetery was used between 650/660 and the end of the 8th century.
    The skull of the Europid type mature man buried into the catacomb grave 72 was slightly distorted. The burial customs, primarily the catacomb grave is a characteristic of the population of the Eastern European origin, but the man wore the Meroving-type belt decorated with metal inlay, which was supposed to be a gift from a Meroving cultures community of the Transdanubia. The grave was dated to the turn of the 7th-8th centuries."



    Distance to: PVper72 (low quality sample)
    17.12584596 Belarusian_Minsk
    17.20299102 Russian_Kargopol
    17.28154796 Latvian
    17.38495614 Russian_average
    17.85450643 Mordovian
    17.98171293 Lithuanian
    18.60265841 Russian_Smolensk
    18.62510403 Ukrainian
    18.64797844 Russian_Kostroma
    18.69707464 Russian_Southwest
    19.16255202 Russian_Northern_Dvina
    19.32386866 Belorussian
    19.96688759 Polish_Kielce
    20.18186810 Polish
    21.16438518 Estonian
    21.62311957 Moldova_Ukrainian
    21.75174706 Polish_Masuria
    21.87114080 East_Finnish
    22.62672314 Ukrainian_Galicia
    22.79878506 South_Polish
    23.84950314 Ukrainian_Carpathian
    24.09023661 Finnish
    24.66391291 Sorb_Lusatia
    25.80640618 Slovak
    27.06458202 Bosniak_Bosnia
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-15-2021 at 09:00 PM.

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  5. #1533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Patrick J. Geary - "There's a lot of supposedly Longobard burials there and as we look at the material culture of people that the archaeologists say this is clearly a Germanic burial, we find that their genetic is completely Italian. So are these people local guards? Are they part of the army? Are they under certain circumstances Longobards and under other circumstances Romans? Do they move back and forth? Are there multiple identities?"



    -------------------------------------

    "Interestingly the [Avar] elite group does not exhibit a genetic connection to the previously investigated small Avar period population from southeast Hungary either, because the latter shows predominantly Eastern European maternal genetic and also different archaeological characters with Eastern European traditions (catacomb graves and partial animal depositions for e.g.). The genetic difference correlates well with the cultural and anthropological differences of this group and shows that the conquering Avar population was heterogeneous and differed in genetic makeup from the local population.

    One sample in our dataset (HC9) comes from this population, and both his mtDNA (T1a1b) and Y chromosome (R1a) support Eastern European connections. The observed within-Avar genetic differences correlate well with the cultural and anthropological differences of this group and demonstrate the heterogeneity of the Avar population."





    -------------------------------------

    "Pitvaros-Víztározó - 225 graves of the late Avar cemetery on the outskirts of the Pitvaros village (Csongrád County, Hungary) was excavated between 1993–1996 by Lívia Bende. On the basis of the special burial customs the community, which has used this cemetery, seems to have been the descendants of the population of the Eastern European origin known in the early Avar period. The small community, which has opened the cemetery, stretched from the western part of the Transtisza region to the area inside the rivers around the middle of the 7th century. The community kept their special burial customs all the way (catacomb graves, partial sacrificial animals etc.). The cemetery was used between 650/660 and the end of the 8th century.
    The skull of the Europid type mature man buried into the catacomb grave 72 was slightly distorted. The burial customs, primarily the catacomb grave is a characteristic of the population of the Eastern European origin, but the man wore the Meroving-type belt decorated with metal inlay, which was supposed to be a gift from a Meroving cultures community of the Transdanubia. The grave was dated to the turn of the 7th-8th centuries."



    Distance to: PVper72 (low quality sample)
    17.12584596 Belarusian_Minsk
    17.20299102 Russian_Kargopol
    17.28154796 Latvian
    17.38495614 Russian_average
    17.85450643 Mordovian
    17.98171293 Lithuanian
    18.60265841 Russian_Smolensk
    18.62510403 Ukrainian
    18.64797844 Russian_Kostroma
    18.69707464 Russian_Southwest
    19.16255202 Russian_Northern_Dvina
    19.32386866 Belorussian
    19.96688759 Polish_Kielce
    20.18186810 Polish
    21.16438518 Estonian
    21.62311957 Moldova_Ukrainian
    21.75174706 Polish_Masuria
    21.87114080 East_Finnish
    22.62672314 Ukrainian_Galicia
    22.79878506 South_Polish
    23.84950314 Ukrainian_Carpathian
    24.09023661 Finnish
    24.66391291 Sorb_Lusatia
    25.80640618 Slovak
    27.06458202 Bosniak_Bosnia
    Very important not to confuse definitions here. Just because ethnolinguistic identities in the ancient world were complex (and often unknown--we may never know about the self-perception of many groups. Maybe many para-Slavic groups called themselves by the same name as the Slavic groups, for example, but we never hear about it), does not mean that the expansion of the Slavic languages were not associated with the expansion of a particular population carrying a particular genetic signature and, in some cases, a particular archaeological culture.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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  7. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    does not mean that the expansion of the Slavic languages were not associated with the expansion of a particular population carrying a particular genetic signature and, in some cases, a particular archaeological culture.
    The expansion of Slavic languages was related to i.e. this event and Prague-type warfare (associated with Slavic warriors/Y-DNA lines) "After the slaughter of the Heruli, Hermanaric [Goths] also took arms against the Venethi. This people, though despised in war, was strong in numbers and tried to resist him. But a multitude of cowards is of no avail, particularly when God permits an armed multitude to attack them. These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni. Though they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our [Gothic] sins, yet at that time they were all obedient to Hermanaric's [Goths] commands."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-15-2021 at 09:28 PM.

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  9. #1535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Because populations can be defined by the fact that there is panmixia within the group. A population that originated as an admixture between 2 highly contrasting founding groups will be very homogeneous with, say 5 generations of mixing (~125 years).
    Assuming they mix. While not a perfect analogy, look at the lack of mixing between the “white” and “black” populations of the American south from 1600 to 1960. Is it not possible some relatively diverse populations lived next to each other for a few hundred years with some elements mixing and others not?

    There appears to be other similar/analogous examples, as Waldemar’s post points out.

    Regarding the rest of your post, I need a bit more time to respond and will get back to it later technically at work right now
    Last edited by Brent.B; 06-15-2021 at 09:21 PM.

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  11. #1536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Yes, the expansion of Slavic languages was related to i.e. this event and Prague-type warfare (associated with Slavic warriors/Y-DNA lines) "After the slaughter of the Heruli, Hermanaric [Goths] also took arms against the Venethi. This people, though despised in war, was strong in numbers and tried to resist him. But a multitude of cowards is of no avail, particularly when God permits an armed multitude to attack them. These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni. Though they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our [Gothic] sins, yet at that time they were all obedient to Hermanaric's [Goths] commands."
    Its absurd to suggest that, because the early Slavs may have been ruled by Goths, therefore the genetic signature of the population in which proto-Slavic developed and with which it expanded must have included everyone from Gothic-like people to Slavic-like people. Thats like saying because the expansion of English-speakers in the US included people of British, German, French, African ancestry expanding across the continent, as visible from aDNA from graves, so the precursors of American English must have developed in an area ranging from England to Africa.

    I don't see this kind of argument used for any other linguistic expansion except for the Slavic one, why is that? Not an argument worth engaging with.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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  13. #1537
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    Isn't the greatest diversity for M458 and L1029 found in Poland and isn't the location with the greatest diversity usually seen as the place of origin?

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  15. #1538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Its absurd to suggest that, because the early Slavs may have been ruled by Goths, therefore the genetic signature of the population in which proto-Slavic developed and with which it expanded must have included everyone from Gothic-like people to Slavic-like people.
    You've misunderstood me. The expansion of Slavic languages wasn't associated with Gothic-like (so for example Swedish-like) people/men. It was very likely associated with the population closely related to "Slavic_I-Y3120", "Slavic_R-L1029" and "Slavic_R-L260" clusters.



    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-15-2021 at 10:07 PM.

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  17. #1539
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    Was it Tacitus or Jordanes that stated the Veneti spoke a language which neither Germanic nor Sarmatian?

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  19. #1540
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    L1029 has a TMRCA of 2100 according to YFull. Here is a screen shot from Wikipedia regarding the Cultures of Central and Eastern Europe, circa 100 CE.
    Screenshot (18).png
    Relatedly and interestingly, I found this dialogue, starting on page 2, between Michal and Davidski from 2013. I don't know if either still hold to these views 8 years later (LOL), but I found it interesting to the conversation at hand.
    http://www.molgen.org/eng/viewtopic....c532d&start=10
    Last edited by leonardo; 06-15-2021 at 11:26 PM.

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