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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    I think this will never be solved. Even if it is, it will never be accepted regardless of where the evidence points. Theres also the case of Chernobyl event. The radiation is near to some "core" areas associated with the Kiev Culture. Unless samples are found outside the radiation zone, this question is likely not to be answered. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine those radiated areas have damaged any such DNA that may exist there. Not sure how much of the Kiev Culture zone fall out of that radiation zone. There's also the fact that Proto-Slavs are expected to have mostly practiced cremation. So even if it was originating here, it seems one would have to take it on faith.

    Even if ancient DNA is limited, I am of the mind that some evidence however misleading is better than well educated guesswork with no evidence. In this regard, M458 was found in SW Germany. Regardless of his Balto-Slavic like drift, his level of "outlying" is being over exaggerated here. He still clustered with Iron Age central European populations. Using modern samples and Balto-Slavic like drift without any IBD evidence to make the case for him being "foreign" in IA Central Europe is quite ignorant and shaky. Not to mention he was discovered in late Hallstatt which coincided with the arrival of cremation rite and Iron weapons(ding ding). Now the rumored L1029 in Eastern La Tene which is an offshoot of Hallstatt. The MX265 sample was also low quality and likely was further downstream and not basal M458. For all we know, due to its quality, it's balto-slavic like drift(or any drift for that matter) may be dubious. You also have most basal M458* thus far appearing further west and not East(within the Kiev/Milograd or other Balto-Slavic areas). I'm not saying he was Celtic. However, I wouldn't exclude some assimilation of his early ancestor from a now extinct culture that could have been unrecorded, or some other pre-slavic group that introduced some atypical lineages that survived and expanded with Slavs. The Celtic or Celtic defined element in Central Europe was extinguished by or before 50BCE. Not far off from the period of bottleneck found in both I-Y3120 and R-L1029. So whatever events affected this region leading to these shifts and changes also effected these lineages.

    I think medieval samples for I-Y3120 and R-M458 are pretty indicative that most if not all branches of these 2 lines expanded/had a demographic boom with the Slavs and at the very latest in time were absorbed before the migration/expansion.

    However, where the Iron Age and Bronze Age are concerned, I find it foolish and somewhat agenda driven to associate either of these haplogroups with Balto-Slavs. For a number of reasons. For one, there's no ancient samples within the Kiev zone or even previous Milograd Culture to associate with I-Y3120 and R-L1029 at any phase prior and just at the point of migration. Also, R-L1029 and I-Y3120 descends from one person each.

    Theres absolutely no diversity of either lineage in Balts or even within other M458 clades. These 2 lineages have a diversity no greater than the early medieval in Balts. They also tend to share clades with Slavs between 700-1600 years in most cases. So its obvious I-Y3120 and R-L1029 and probably most of M458 were intrusive elements among Balts and just maybe intrusive among early Proto-Slavs or late(depending in which split in time from Balto-Slavic you subscribe to). So, they couldn't have been part of Balto-Slavs. Where's all the Baltic specific branches typical of the split between both groups such as Z280(Z92/CTS1211)? There isn't any..

    Regardless of whether you subscribe to the early Proto-Slavic split or the late Proto-Slavic split from Balto-Slavs. Neither scenario are supported where it concerns these lines. If anything, the second scenario is more plausible as it seems these lines have no diversity or expansion among Balts until the early medieval. Both lineages were likely pre-Slavic initially and then Proto-Slavic and has no connection to Balto-Slavs before them.

    Theres also the problem that both lines coming from individual men somehow were exclusively the only ones to survive in Proto-Slavs and yet despite both firmly being among them, there has yet to be discovered any parallel/partial branches within either line even among Slavs. So, somehow we are to believe that only 2 men in 100BCE roughly, were the last of their "Proto-Slavic" stock, and had no sibling lines that survived to the modern day?

    I find it hard to believe that only 2 men survived within the Proto-Slavic gene-pool and somehow all diversity within them was extinguished within the very population they hail from. So much so that no parallel/singleton branches within either happened to survive/be discovered. And yet such singletons at least for M458* can be found from Poland, to Wales, to Italy, to Balkan Turks in Greece and still absent among Balts or other Slavs.

    I don't think anyone can deny the association and expansion of these lineages with Slavs between late antiquity and early medieval. Claiming this is the case going back to Iron Age and Bronze Age with no evidence ancient or modern, and associating it with cultures that aren't conclusively declared Proto-Slavic is another matter. One which many people act like it's a solved, closed and shut case when that is not true at all.
    The radiation may not in fact have affected aDNA substantially. The reason why radionuclides are such an issue for living humans is because we bioaccumulate (i.e. hyper-concentrate) radioactive isotopes of Iodine in our thyroid, and strontium in our bones, for example, and the decay of uranium produces quite a lot of Iodine and strontium, so living in an a contaminated area exposes our internal organs to much greater levels of radiation than just the background radiation itself. Which often is not that bad.

    I don't know any projects sampling from the Kiev culture. Would be interesting to try.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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  3. #1542
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    About languages used by Hunnic subjects in the Pannonian Basin within a single archaeological horizon:
    "When I arrived at the house, along with the attendants who carried the gifts, I found the doors closed, and had to wait until some one should come out and announce our arrival. As I waited and walked up and down in front of the enclosure which surrounded the house, a man, whom from his Scythian dress I took for a barbarian, came up and addressed me in Greek, with the word Xaire, "Hail!" I was surprised at a Scythian speaking Greek. For the subjects of the Huns, swept together from various lands, speak, besides their own barbarous tongues, either Hunnic or Gothic, or--as many as have commercial dealings with the western Romans--Latin; but none of them easily speak Greek, except captives from the Thracian or Illyrian sea-coast; and these last are easily known to any stranger by their torn garments and the squalor of their heads, as men who have met with a reverse. This man, on the contrary, resembled a well-to-do Scythian, being well dressed, and having his hair cut in a circle after Scythian fashion. Having returned his salutation, I asked him who he was and whence he had come into a foreign land and adopted Scythian life. When he asked me why I wanted to know, I told him that his Hellenic speech had prompted my curiosity. Then he smiled and said that he was born a Greek and had gone as a merchant to Viminacium, on the Danube, where he had stayed a long time, and married a very rich wife. But the city fell a prey to the barbarians, and he was stript of his prosperity, and on account of his riches was allotted to Onegesius in the division of the spoil, as it was the custom among the Scythians for the chiefs to reserve for themselves the rich prisoners. Having fought bravely against the Romans and the Acatiri, he had paid the spoils he won to his master, and so obtained freedom. He then married a barbarian wife and had children, and had the privilege of eating at the table of Onegesius."

    So we have:
    - Hunnic
    - Gothic
    - Latin
    - Greek
    - their own various languages
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-16-2021 at 03:53 AM.

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  5. #1543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Unless you have a very unusual theory that, say, a Balkan EEF-rich group and a Lusatian-remnant-type group and a Baltic-like group mixed together into a proto-Slavic speaking population and this proto-Slavic speaking population expanded less than 50 years later, before things homogenized very much, and that this diversity in the Proto-slavs was somehow preserved across multiple centuries from LIB to POH and as the group expanded, allowing for all three types to be recovered from multiple sites across Eastern Europe. I guess this scenario is possible, but why accept something like that and reject something much more in line with what we've seen before, like with the proto-Germanics? Who were very homogeneous and were clearly the result of a long period of independent linguistic development and genetic drift/population isolation, before expanding in early centuries AD, such that their genetic signature is readily identifiable. Especially when IBD signals suggest that Slavic populations experienced a genetic contribution from a highly bottlenecked, rapidly expanding population with the bottleneck coinciding with the breakup of Proto-Slavic (dated linguistically) and with the admixture dates coinciding with the Slavicisation of each region? I don't know why you would reject this scenario that is sociolinguistically plausible and supported by multiple lines of evidence and support something more convoluted and less parsimonious.
    I'm not saying that proto-slavs expanded from a "EEF-rich/Lusatian-remnant/Baltic-like" population/area. Rather, that a "EEF-rich/Lusatian-remnant/Baltic-like" population introduced various M458 clades into the Kiev culture (that would have been very baltic-like auDNA wise). Through some sort of founder effect/after a few generations of mixing most of these M458 outsiders probably started to look like the local population.

    The "EEF-rich/Lusatian-remnant/Baltic-like" people that introduced M458 to the Kiev culture probably lived between the Germanics and the Kiev culture itself, hence why we see it popping up in SW Germany and Bohemia at such an early date. Who are they? Its obviously too soon to tell for sure. But Hallstatt -> La Tene seems to be the only two samples we have so far... meaning it was either introduced by them (Hallstatt/La Tene) directly, or more likely a nearby population introduced it to both the Hallstatt/La Tene culture as well as the Proto-Slavic community. IMO they will be represented in some way by either the Pomeranian/Przeworsk/Zarubinets/Oksywie->Wielbark culture(s?)... maybe Bastarni or a similar sort of group? These same people probably had a large germanic element... something supported by archeology (both Przeworsk and Zarubinets share a Pomeranian culture "base" loosely speaking, and both show ties to the Jastorf and La Tene cultures).

    What happened to this "EEF-rich/Lusatian-remnant/Baltic-like" population? Depends on what one thinks happened to Poland during migration era. If 100% of the place migrated west with the Germans, some of the M458 we find in the west might be from them. If Poland had some percentage of the pre-slavic population remain behind during the 5-7th centuries, then some of the lineages we find in Poland may also have been there since before 500AD. That being said, the majority (how much? not sure) of M458 lineages in Poland would still be from Kiev culture migrations.

    If we find M458 Milograd/Chernoles culture, I'd have to seriously rethink this theory. However, if we continue to find M458 west of Ukraine before, 500AD, and fail to turn any up in Ukraine/Belarus prior to the Kiev culture, it would reinforce the idea that M458 came from the west.

    (using "EEF-rich/Lusatian-remnant/Baltic-like" since you do, I am not sure what they will look like auDNA-wise yet... even if these people will turn out homogenous or not. Not sure if they spoke a porto-slavic language or not either. I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but the rumored La Tene L1029 sample apparently is most similar to Scandinavians, so I'm not sure how that factors in)

    I'd like to point out that a lot of this is speculative because we don't have enough aDNA yet.
    Last edited by Brent.B; 06-16-2021 at 04:14 AM.

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  7. #1544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    So we have:
    - Hunnic
    - Gothic
    - Latin
    - Greek
    - their own various languages
    Unfortunately, we don't have such a list for Wielbark/Chernyakhov horizon, so we could only guess :(

    Greek?
    Distance to: Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
    0.03748795 Turkish:12BA60
    0.03922026 Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_18
    0.04201669 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central5
    0.04294755 Greek_Crete:783

    Slavic?
    Distance to: UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.03054148 Polish:Polish39
    0.04051174 Ukrainian:ULV293_ukrainian_Lviv
    0.04157263 Slovakian:Slovakia85
    0.04201743 Ukrainian:UKR-1291

    ???
    Distance to: UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:MJ37
    0.03249624 Hungarian:NA15207
    0.03386858 Austrian:Austria13
    0.03588778 Croatian:Croatia_Cro26
    0.03686455 Moldovan:44618757472C02
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-16-2021 at 04:28 AM.

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  9. #1545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    (...) For the subjects of the Huns, swept together from various lands (...)
    "Three individuals dating to the Great Migration Period (5th century CE) were discovered in a pit at the Hermanov vinograd site in Osijek, Croatia (...) Radiocarbon dating of a human bone sample (Beta-435512) confirmed the use of this archaeological feature between 415 and 560 CE (Cal BP 1535 to 1390, 95% probability), consistent with the estimation made using pottery fragments, and confirming that the pit was in use during the Migration Period (...) Results of the genetic analyses of the nuclear ancient DNA data for these individuals indicate that the individual without artificial cranial deformation shows broadly West Eurasian associated-ancestry, the individual with tabular oblique-type has East Asian ancestry and the third individual with circular erect-type has Near Eastern associated-ancestry. Based on these results, we speculate that artificial cranial deformation type may have been a visual indicator membership in a specific cultural group, and that these groups were interacting intimately on the Pannonian Plain during the Migration Period."



    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0216366

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  11. #1546
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    In order to infer about an ethnos on the basis of paternal uniparental markers, we would have to establish their pattern, because an ethnos consists of many clans that get along at some point and start a common history from that moment on.

    Archogenomics, whose serious limitation is the amount of biological material, will not help us determine this pattern. Research modern Y-DNA looks more promising if it covers a sufficiently large number of people. Where there will be the greatest variety of clades characteristic of most Slavs, there will be the Proto-Slavic homeland.

  12. #1547
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    Slavs seem to have practised pretty much only the cremation ritual. Did the Kiev culture or the Polesie population have this practise or it arrived there with post urnfield culture from central/northern europe?

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  14. #1548
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Slavs seem to have practised pretty much only the cremation ritual. Did the Kiev culture or the Polesie population have this practise or it arrived there with post urnfield culture from central/northern europe?
    Milograd had some burials too but mostly cremation.
    Zarubinets had cremation, Kiev had cremation.

    “Baltic Forest” cultures ala Dnieper Dvin or Brushed Pottery I think have no known burials at all.
    “Baltic Baltic” cultures some had inhumation, some had cremation.

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  16. #1549
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Zarubinets had cremation, Kiev had cremation.
    Przeworsk, Oksywie, Jastorf and Wielbark people were cremating their dead as well.

    That's why one of the scientists working on Wielbark inhumation samples wrote...Google translate: "Certainly, work focusing on Goths auDNA can be expected from our side. We have gained more experience beyond the genomics and we know that to solve a specific problem, you need to additionally arm yourself with samples surrounding Goths (Przeworsk, Oksywie, Jastorf, etc.), and these are extremely hard to find and we ask about them all the time."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-16-2021 at 04:26 PM.

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  18. #1550
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    I think I found a way to measure Balto-Slavic drift.

    The German Corded Ware outlier occupies the same position as Belarusians on a WHG/EEF/Steppe based PCA:


    So, their general admixture proportions are pretty similar.

    However, he is actually more closely related to other CWC samples from Germany than to Baltic_BA (negative z-score):

    Code:
    > f4(f2_blocks,'Cameroon_SMA_published','Germany_CordedWare_o','Germany_CordedWare','Estonia_BA.SG')
    # A tibble: 1 x 8
      pop1                   pop2                 pop3               pop4               est       se     z        p
      <chr>                  <chr>                <chr>              <chr>            <dbl>    <dbl> <dbl>    <dbl>
    1 Cameroon_SMA_published Germany_CordedWare_o Germany_CordedWare Estonia_BA.SG -0.00377 0.000534 -7.05 1.77e-12
    For Belarusians it's the opposite: (positive z-score)

    Code:
    > f4(f2_blocks,'Cameroon_SMA_published','Belarusian','Germany_CordedWare','Estonia_BA.SG')
    # A tibble: 1 x 8
      pop1                   pop2       pop3               pop4              est       se     z           p
      <chr>                  <chr>      <chr>              <chr>           <dbl>    <dbl> <dbl>       <dbl>
    1 Cameroon_SMA_published Belarusian Germany_CordedWare Estonia_BA.SG 0.00139 0.000282  4.91 0.000000919

    The conclusion is that the German Corded Ware outlier doesn't have any Baltic drift. He is just a member of his population, but with increased WHG admixture.

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