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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    My apologies for the confusion.

    Can you check MX265 with this method at your convenience? If it's no trouble.

    Wasn't he closer to the middle/late Iron Age as opposed to early Iron Age?

    I think he was 500-700BCE? Many scholars place the end or late period of the iron age at around 550-500BCE. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    I did check it (MX 265/ Singen EIA), check my post again. i just can't post the test output right now.

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  3. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    i'm not on my PC any more , but i did run the tests before leaving. i'll post them tomorrow, maybe other members can take the idea further until then.

    now writing from memory,
    Singen EIA is slightly closer to Baltic BA than to Singen EBA. With Poland EBA instead of Baltic BA the score gets even higher.

    Poland EBA and N47/N49 are slightly closer to Baltic BA than to Polish CWC.

    Scy009 , 10 and MJ-14 are slightly closer to Baltic BA than to other Scythians. For chernyakhiv MJ19 it's the same, and even for MJ37 which is south Slavic like by admixture proportions.

    Czech bbc outlier is much closer to Baltic BA than to other Czech bbc, higher z score than any of the above. it could be a mislabeled Slav.

    high WHG Hungarian Scythians are closer to other Hungarian Scythians and to Hungarian BA, than to Baltic BA.

    edit: i also remembered, Spiginas2 is much closer to Baltic Ba than to Baltic CWC.

    also, modern groups which have similar admixture proportions to these samples (Balts , Slavs, Hungarians) have much higher z scores towards Baltic Ba, only one Polish Eba comes close if I remember right.
    Hi Bce,

    Thanks so much for these comparisons! They are quite illuminating.

    Just an additional request if you don't mind though? Because stats of the form:
    f4(Cameroon_SMA, Base_Population_WHG-rich_Outlier, Base_Population, Baltic_BA)

    are not as illuminating as stats of the form:
    f4(Cameroon_SMA, X, Germany_CWC_o, Belarusian)

    Because for the first stat, the increased drift the WHG-rich outliers share with Baltic_BA relative to the base population could be caused by (increased WHG) or (increased WHG + Balto-Slavic drift), its hard to tell them apart.
    For the second stat, because Germany_CWC_o and Belarusian have basically the same Steppe:EEF:WHG ratio, the only reason why X would prefer one or another is because of varying levels of Balto-Slavic drift.
    Do you mind running the second set of stats for all populations which you listed, both the base populations (e.g. Singen_EIA) and the WHG-rich outliers (e.g. Singen_EIA_o) once you have access to your computer again? The second set of stats would be extremely illuminating! It would give us an incredibly clear picture of where BS drift existed in our BA and IA samples thus far!

    Great work in finding the pair of populations with comparable ratios like Germany_CWC_o and Belarusian by the way! This opens the way to so much future analysis!
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  5. #1563
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    Is it possible that M458 was part of the Eastern Bell Beaker and Corded Ware Cultures? And are there any of the the populated branches of M458, today, found in any ancient sample - even the Bronze Age?

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  7. #1564
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    i'm not on my PC any more , but i did run the tests before leaving. i'll post them tomorrow, maybe other members can take the idea further until then.

    now writing from memory,
    Singen EIA is slightly closer to Baltic BA than to Singen EBA. With Poland EBA instead of Baltic BA the score gets even higher.

    Poland EBA and N47/N49 are slightly closer to Baltic BA than to Polish CWC.

    Scy009 , 10 and MJ-14 are slightly closer to Baltic BA than to other Scythians. For chernyakhiv MJ19 it's the same, and even for MJ37 which is south Slavic like by admixture proportions.

    Czech bbc outlier is much closer to Baltic BA than to other Czech bbc, higher z score than any of the above. it could be a mislabeled Slav.

    high WHG Hungarian Scythians are closer to other Hungarian Scythians and to Hungarian BA, than to Baltic BA.

    edit: i also remembered, Spiginas2 is much closer to Baltic Ba than to Baltic CWC.

    also, modern groups which have similar admixture proportions to these samples (Balts , Slavs, Hungarians) have much higher z scores towards Baltic Ba, only one Polish Eba comes close if I remember right.
    Something else bce,
    If you have enough time, you could write a script to run that f4 statistic I suggested (Cameroon_SMA, X, Germany_CWC_o, Belarusian) for all populations of ancient Europe. This may be interesting because Balto-Slavic drift may not be limited to just WHG-rich populations only. If e.g. Arza is right and Baltic_BA and all Balto-Slavic populations have Balkan EEF, then Balkan EEF in the position of "X" will also clearly favour modern Balto-Slavs resulting in a very positive Z-statistic. Basically, any population, including non WHG-rich ones, that share drift with modern Balto-Slavs because they have contributed to modern Balto-Slavs will be highlighted in this comparison.

    In fact to sharpen the analysis even further for EEF sources one could run:
    f4(EEF_source_Y, EEF_source_X, Germany_CWC_o, Belarusian)
    for all pairs of EEF populations in X and Y. Or even:
    f4(WHG_source_Y, WHG_source_X, Germany_CWC_o, Belarusian)
    If both EEF and WHG sources favour Carpathians we get something very pleasing indeed for Balto-Slavic origins! (NB to rest of forum: not Slavic origins, Balto-Slavic origins, which may have something to do with carpathians while Slavic origins are more securely rooted towards Ukraine/Belarus)

    The fact that you've found the Germany_CWC_o and Belarusian pair opens up so many possibilities!
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 06-16-2021 at 11:57 PM.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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  9. #1565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Przeworsk, Oksywie, Jastorf and Wielbark people were cremating their dead as well.

    That's why one of the scientists working on Wielbark inhumation samples wrote...Google translate: "Certainly, work focusing on Goths auDNA can be expected from our side. We have gained more experience beyond the genomics and we know that to solve a specific problem, you need to additionally arm yourself with samples surrounding Goths (Przeworsk, Oksywie, Jastorf, etc.), and these are extremely hard to find and we ask about them all the time."
    And all of these (minus Jastorf?) trace at least partial origin to the Pomeranian “face urns” culture. The PC also practiced cremation… I believe it’s where they got the name “face urns”.

    The Pomeranian culture was also trading with the La Tene Celts roughly around the time of MX265 (see amber road)

    Im not certain about this, but I thought that Milograd culture practiced inhumation?

    Edit: I guess early milograd culture burials tended to be inhumations. Later Milograd culture burials tended to be cremations. Can somebody confirm that sounds about right?
    Last edited by Brent.B; 06-17-2021 at 03:18 AM.

  10. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    And all of these (minus Jastorf?) trace at least partial origin to the Pomeranian “face urns” culture. The PC also practiced cremation… I believe it’s where they got the name “face urns”.

    The Pomeranian culture was also trading with the La Tene Celts roughly around the time of MX265 (see amber road)

    Im not certain about this, but I thought that Milograd culture practiced inhumation?

    Edit: I guess early milograd culture burials tended to be inhumations. Later Milograd culture burials tended to be cremations. Can somebody confirm that sounds about right?
    There was no Proto-Slavic word for amber, so if Pomeranians were Balto-Slavic then likely West Balts.

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  12. #1567
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    The best explanation for the low number of M458 is the cremation rite practiced by representatives of this paternal lineage.

    MX265 from Iron Age was a genetic Slav but could not be a genetic Slav because the Slavs came to Central Europe in the Middle Ages. This is good! In Poland, in such cases, we say that someone is chasing around his own tail.

    After all, genetics is to verify historical concepts, not the other way around.

    MX265
    R1a-M458

    Target: MX265_scaled
    Distance: 1.7455% / 0.01745535
    43.8 Polish
    21.0 Sardinian
    14.6 Belgian
    11.8 Italian_Apulia
    3.8 Lithuanian_VZ
    3.6 Ukrainian
    0.6 Ju_hoan_North
    0.6 Papuan
    0.2 Berber_MAR_ERR

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  14. #1568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Something else bce,
    If you have enough time, you could write a script to run that f4 statistic I suggested (Cameroon_SMA, X, Germany_CWC_o, Belarusian) for all populations of ancient Europe. This may be interesting because Balto-Slavic drift may not be limited to just WHG-rich populations only. If e.g. Arza is right and Baltic_BA and all Balto-Slavic populations have Balkan EEF, then Balkan EEF in the position of "X" will also clearly favour modern Balto-Slavs resulting in a very positive Z-statistic. Basically, any population, including non WHG-rich ones, that share drift with modern Balto-Slavs because they have contributed to modern Balto-Slavs will be highlighted in this comparison.

    In fact to sharpen the analysis even further for EEF sources one could run:
    f4(EEF_source_Y, EEF_source_X, Germany_CWC_o, Belarusian)
    for all pairs of EEF populations in X and Y. Or even:
    f4(WHG_source_Y, WHG_source_X, Germany_CWC_o, Belarusian)
    If both EEF and WHG sources favour Carpathians we get something very pleasing indeed for Balto-Slavic origins! (NB to rest of forum: not Slavic origins, Balto-Slavic origins, which may have something to do with carpathians while Slavic origins are more securely rooted towards Ukraine/Belarus)

    The fact that you've found the Germany_CWC_o and Belarusian pair opens up so many possibilities!
    Arza's theory that the Balkan or even the Carpathians are the homeland of Balto-Slavs or Balto-Slavic drift makes not any sense for me. I mean there is not even an archaeological culture I am aware of that could brought significant Balkan BA/EBA ancestry to East Europe this early. Neither are linguistics pointing to this (Carpathian region having non-Balto-Slavic toponyms and hydronyms, Balto-Slavic being close to CWC-derived Indo-Iranian, IE langugages spoken in the Balkan being distantly related to Balto-Slavic) . None of the common Balto-Slavic clades like Z92 and CTS1211 or even Slavic-specific I2a-Din and M458 can be linked to the Balkan during the BA. Even most mtDNA of Balt_BA, Balts and modern-day Slavs is GAC-derived because it was either found in GAC/TRB or diverged from mtDNA of Beall Beakers and North Europeans around 2000-4000 B.C. Actually we have BA/CWC samples from Slovakia and South Poland (near the Carpathians) and they actually not show Balkan EEF admixture, Balto-Slavic drift or Balto-Slavic-related Y-DNA (they are either R1b or basal R1a-Z280*). Also we have Balto-Slavic drift + Balto-Slavic-related Y-DNA in Lithuania around 2000 B.C so such a Balkan/Carpathian migration should happen before 2000 B.C and for this, i even see less archaeological or genetic evidence especially because samples from CWC Southeast Poland lack any Balto-Slavic drift or Y-DNA.

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  16. #1569
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    Coldmountains, the Nitra population with a large Balto-Slavic drift and a large share of Z280 comes from south-eastern Poland.

  17. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Coldmountains, the Nitra population with a large Balto-Slavic drift and a large share of Z280 comes from south-eastern Poland.
    No none of the SVK_EBA, Bell Beaker Hun or CWC Southeast Poland/Chlopice Vesele has Balto-Slavic drift. SVK_EBA and Chlopice Vesele (South Poland) is dated around 2000 B.C so almost contemporary with Spiginas2 who has Balto-Slavic-related Y-DNA and Balto-Slavic drift.


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