Page 158 of 341 FirstFirst ... 58108148156157158159160168208258 ... LastLast
Results 1,571 to 1,580 of 3408

Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1571
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,623
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    No none of the SVK_EBA, Bell Beaker Hun or CWC Southeast Poland/Chlopice Vesele has Balto-Slavic drift. SVK_EBA and Chlopice Vesele (South Poland) is dated around 2000 B.C so almost contemporary with Spiginas2 who has Balto-Slavic-related Y-DNA and Balto-Slavic drift.

    Well, these are all other populations that bce can try out in his new f4s! (@bce if you're seeing this!) We'll see if any populations of the Carpathians have real Balto-slavic drift, as opposed to generalised WHG richness.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

  2. #1572
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,650
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun/East-Slavic
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Well, these are all other populations that bce can try out in his new f4s! (@bce if you're seeing this!) We'll see if any populations of the Carpathians have real Balto-slavic drift, as opposed to generalised WHG richness.
    well the point is that these samples are contemporary with Spiginas2 or only slightly older and from the Carpathian Region and South Poland but in terms of drift not closer to East Europeans than to West Europeans actually in many cases closer to West Europeans so i don't see how they are ancestral to Balto-Slavs. Also none of them had Balto-Slavic-related Y-DNA and the R1a-Z280 found among SVK_EBA is not closer to Balto-Slavic Y-DNA than for example Srubnaya R1a-Z280*. Most importantly this sample lacks Balto-Slavic drift what is visible in this North Euro specific PCA (It would show him and other other samples much more eastern shifted if they Balto-Slavic drift)

    Distance to: SVK_EBA:S11953
    0.05197434 Swedish
    0.05205204 Norwegian
    0.05483989 Danish
    0.05540397 Icelandic
    0.05609122 Slovakian
    0.05851071 Dutch
    0.05923930 Shetlandic
    0.05958112 Irish
    0.05993636 Orcadian

    Distance to: POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture:I6537
    0.03739250 Irish
    0.03814412 Orcadian
    0.03839529 Dutch
    0.03846522 Scottish
    0.03926710 Danish
    0.03991596 Shetlandic
    0.04030646 Norwegian
    0.04030734 Icelandic
    0.04122288 Welsh
    0.04174013 Swedish


    Distance to: POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture:I6531
    0.05853461 Swedish
    0.06025495 Icelandic
    0.06090557 Norwegian
    0.06110222 Danish
    0.06399871 Shetlandic
    0.06478412 Finnish
    0.06508676 Dutch
    0.06538078 Irish
    0.06612760 Ingrian
    0.06644788 Orcadian
    0.06671010 Scottish
    0.06794404 Russian_Tver
    0.06933958 Russian_Kursk
    0.06985413 Slovakian

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     Michał (06-18-2021),  Ryukendo (06-17-2021)

  4. #1573
    Registered Users
    Posts
    682

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Arza's theory that the Balkan or even the Carpathians are the homeland of Balto-Slavs or Balto-Slavic drift makes not any sense for me. I mean there is not even an archaeological culture I am aware of that could brought significant Balkan BA/EBA ancestry to East Europe this early. Neither are linguistics pointing to this (Carpathian region having non-Balto-Slavic toponyms and hydronyms, Balto-Slavic being close to CWC-derived Indo-Iranian, IE langugages spoken in the Balkan being distantly related to Balto-Slavic) . None of the common Balto-Slavic clades like Z92 and CTS1211 or even Slavic-specific I2a-Din and M458 can be linked to the Balkan during the BA. Even most mtDNA of Balt_BA, Balts and modern-day Slavs is GAC-derived because it was either found in GAC/TRB or diverged from mtDNA of Beall Beakers and North Europeans around 2000-4000 B.C. Actually we have BA/CWC samples from Slovakia and South Poland (near the Carpathians) and they actually not show Balkan EEF admixture, Balto-Slavic drift or Balto-Slavic-related Y-DNA (they are either R1b or basal R1a-Z280*). Also we have Balto-Slavic drift + Balto-Slavic-related Y-DNA in Lithuania around 2000 B.C so such a Balkan/Carpathian migration should happen before 2000 B.C and for this, i even see less archaeological or genetic evidence especially because samples from CWC Southeast Poland lack any Balto-Slavic drift or Y-DNA.
    You might want to read some articles from the linguists Hamp and Mayer about this:

    https://groznijat.tripod.com/balkan/ehamp.html
    https://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm

    The possibility of special, close aboriginal (Pre-)Slavic-(Pre)Albanian dialectal ties indicates the Carpathians as a common ancestral home for (Pre-)Slavs and (Pre-)Albanians where they led a pastoral, migratory existence. This location surely originally put them out of reach of contact with Pre-Baltic.
    Target: Aspar_scaled
    Distance: 1.9646% / 0.01964602 | ADC: 1x RC
    57.6 Macedonian
    42.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia

  5. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Aspar For This Useful Post:

     ambron (06-17-2021),  etrusco (06-17-2021),  JoeyP37 (06-17-2021),  parastais (06-17-2021),  Riverman (06-17-2021),  Ryukendo (06-17-2021)

  6. #1574
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,650
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun/East-Slavic
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    You might want to read some articles from the linguists Hamp and Mayer about this:

    https://groznijat.tripod.com/balkan/ehamp.html
    https://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm
    I am talking about Proto-Balto-Slavs and linguistic evidence does not point to a common Bronze Age origin of Proto-Balto-Slavic and Balkan IE languages. Also most see Balto-Slavic as closest or at least very closely related to Indo-Iranian and to a lesser extent Germanic which we can both quite certainly derive from Corded Ware too. Many linguists also link Germanic and Albanian but I dont think anyone here will derive Proto-Germanic or its Bronze Age ancestor from the Balkan. Like mentioned before we have no archaeological or genetic evidence for now to derive Balto-Slavs from the Balkan or even Carpathians (no Balto-Slavic Y-DNA in these regions, no archaeological culture linked to such a movement, very different autosomal profiles, no Balto-Slavic drift,...) Surely there was contact later between Balkan IEs and early Balto-Slavs especially in the Iron Age and likely gene flow in both directions but deriving Proto-Balto-Slavs outside of CWC/Post-CWC and from the Balkan needs much stronger arguments than using some overfitted Global25 models based on pops which only indirectly contributed to historical Balto-Slavs.

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     Alain (06-17-2021),  Michał (06-18-2021),  Pribislav (06-17-2021)

  8. #1575
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,625
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    You might want to read some articles from the linguists Hamp and Mayer about this:

    https://groznijat.tripod.com/balkan/ehamp.html
    https://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm
    Obviously one possible connection between Daco-Thracians and Proto-Slavs is Eastern Urnfield and the LBA-EIA transition. Gva-Holigrady as one possible big contributor to Daco-Thracians was a neighbour of various cultures, including pretty close to Trzciniec, Komarov, Cernoles and Lusatian culture, all of which might at least have had an influence on Proto-Slavic people. Daco-Thracian might be one of the closest relatives of Baltoslavs.
    Another, very basic issue, is how the rite of cremation and iron technology came to the Slavs in the first place. I'm just asking, because I simply don't know. Through which contacts got the Northern groups Iron technology? We know from Germanics, from Jastorf, that this was accompanied by heavy Hallstatt influences in the early phase. They deliberately created a distinct, more simple, clan based and egalitarian Iron Age culture, very distinct from the Hallstatt sphere. But the early influence and the transmission from Hallstatt, possibly even some sort of genetic influence, is there.
    What's the situation for the North East? Which was the first true Iron Age culture and how did it came up?
    Both the cremation rite and the introduction of iron technology are of greatest importance, they transformed the societies affected quite thoroughly. I wouldn't wonder if at that time some later typically Slavic haplotypes were introduced, of which some didn't affect Balts as much.

  9. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Aspar (06-17-2021),  etrusco (06-17-2021),  Finn (06-17-2021),  leonardo (06-17-2021),  parastais (06-17-2021),  Ryukendo (06-17-2021)

  10. #1576
    Registered Users
    Posts
    497

    Some linguists consider the Dako-Thracian languages to be the Baltic dialects.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ambron For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (06-17-2021),  Riverman (06-17-2021),  Ryukendo (06-17-2021)

  12. #1577
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,625
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Some linguists consider the Dako-Thracian languages to be the Baltic dialects.
    And some consider Thracian and Illyrian to be just dialects, which would make all of Baltic-Slavic-Thracian-Illyrian one group. Obviously, linguists can have many opinions and some might go too far, but with the sparse evidence of Daco-Thracian its hard to say anyway. However, it might be proven that at least archaeologically and genetically there was some sort of connection, which supports the linguistic relatedness of some sort. And I think it will be hard to explain anything without such relations, because quite obviously, the Proto-Slavs didn't develop the religion, the rite of cremation and both developed bronze technology, even less fully developed iron technology, on their own in the North East. That is completely out of question. So we have to check the contacts and whether those are of significance. How big such influences were is hard to tell, without direct genetic comparisons, but that they had no impact is rather very unlikely.

  13. #1578
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,650
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun/East-Slavic
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    And some consider Thracian and Illyrian to be just dialects, which would make all of Baltic-Slavic-Thracian-Illyrian one group. Obviously, linguists can have many opinions and some might go too far, but with the sparse evidence of Daco-Thracian its hard to say anyway. However, it might be proven that at least archaeologically and genetically there was some sort of connection, which supports the linguistic relatedness of some sort. And I think it will be hard to explain anything without such relations, because quite obviously, the Proto-Slavs didn't develop the religion, the rite of cremation and both developed bronze technology, even less fully developed iron technology, on their own in the North East. That is completely out of question. So we have to check the contacts and whether those are of significance. How big such influences were is hard to tell, without direct genetic comparisons, but that they had no impact is rather very unlikely.
    It is extremely unlikely that Proto-Balto-Slavs and Proto-Daco-Thracians come from one Bronze Age group when no Y-DNA was shared between them and ancient Balkan groups lacked any Balto-Slavic excluding Scythian Hungarians with exotic eastern ancestry. Most scholars link Proto-Balto-Slavs with the Trzciniec-Komarov complex and to prove a connection between both groups someone would need to show based on archaeology or/and genetics that Trzciniec-Komariv came from the Balkan or Dacio-Thracians were derived from Trzciniec-Komarov.

    An entirely different story are contacts in the Iron Age which postdate the formation of Proto-Balto-Slavs and would transfer technologies but like Germanics are because of technological transfer not automatically derived from Halstatt I doubt that Pre-Proto-Slavs were derived from the Carpathians because they took technologies and potential admixture from this region. Way or another these IA contacts are unrelated to the question of where Proto-Balto-Slavs originated in the Bronze Age.

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     leonardo (06-17-2021),  Michał (06-18-2021),  Pribislav (06-17-2021)

  15. #1579
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,205
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    N - Z16980

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Obviously one possible connection between Daco-Thracians and Proto-Slavs is Eastern Urnfield and the LBA-EIA transition. Gva-Holigrady as one possible big contributor to Daco-Thracians was a neighbour of various cultures, including pretty close to Trzciniec, Komarov, Cernoles and Lusatian culture, all of which might at least have had an influence on Proto-Slavic people. Daco-Thracian might be one of the closest relatives of Baltoslavs.
    Another, very basic issue, is how the rite of cremation and iron technology came to the Slavs in the first place. I'm just asking, because I simply don't know. Through which contacts got the Northern groups Iron technology? We know from Germanics, from Jastorf, that this was accompanied by heavy Hallstatt influences in the early phase. They deliberately created a distinct, more simple, clan based and egalitarian Iron Age culture, very distinct from the Hallstatt sphere. But the early influence and the transmission from Hallstatt, possibly even some sort of genetic influence, is there.
    What's the situation for the North East? Which was the first true Iron Age culture and how did it came up?
    Both the cremation rite and the introduction of iron technology are of greatest importance, they transformed the societies affected quite thoroughly. I wouldn't wonder if at that time some later typically Slavic haplotypes were introduced, of which some didn't affect Balts as much.
    "Proto-Slavic želězo
    Etymology
    Likely of Proto-Balto-Slavic origin, related to Lithuanian geležs, Latvian dzlzs and Old Prussian gelso, with no clear cognates in other Indo-European branches. The discrepancy of root vocalism between Slavic and Baltic is problematic and requires two different Proto-Balto-Slavic reconstructions, with short -*e- and long -*ē-. Thus, no common form can be reconstructed. Latvian and Old Prussian have syncopated the suffixal -e-."
    (wiktionary)

    So, two reconstructions might mean that Iron word was not used at common Balto-Slavic level, but common language had already split into at least dialects, where some other relevant sound change had played around length of vowels.
    But since this isogloss only in Baltic and Slavic means specifically iron, there must be a common source for this innovation in Balto-Slavic world. Independent at least linguistically from other known languages. Could be mediated via one dialect (Slavic? West Baltic?) into other dialects. Or separate borrowings from some other donor language.
    Last edited by parastais; 06-17-2021 at 10:01 AM.

  16. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to parastais For This Useful Post:

     Aspar (06-17-2021),  Michał (06-18-2021),  Riverman (06-17-2021),  Ryukendo (06-17-2021)

  17. #1580
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,625
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    It is extremely unlikely that Proto-Balto-Slavs and Proto-Daco-Thracians come from one Bronze Age group when no Y-DNA was shared between them and ancient Balkan groups lacked any Balto-Slavic excluding Scythian Hungarians with exotic eastern ancestry. Most scholars link Proto-Balto-Slavs with the Trzciniec-Komarov complex and to prove a connection between both groups someone would need to show based on archaeology or/and genetics that Trzciniec-Komariv came from the Balkan or Dacio-Thracians were derived from Trzciniec-Komarov.

    An entirely different story are contacts in the Iron Age which postdate the formation of Proto-Balto-Slavs and would transfer technologies but like Germanics are not derived from Halstatt I doubt that Pre-Proto-Slavs were derived from the Carpathians because they took technologies and potential admixture from this region. Way or another these IA contacts are unrelated to the question of where Proto-Balto-Slavs originated in the Bronze Age.
    I think it is related insofar as this big Iron Age transition is the last phase before the Germanic contacts in which large scale gene flow and the introduction of new uniparentals could have taken place. Concerning the autosomal profile of Daco-Thracians vs. Baltoslavs, I would just say that we have to consider intermediates, of which many later didn't exist any more. Like Lusatian or Gva-Holigrady, with the first influencing more the North and East, the second the South, Carpatho-Balkan sphere and West. So these two Urnfield groups, already distinct, influenced different spheres and again transmitted to other intermediaries, like in the case of Gva to Belegiš II-Gva. So any kind of original influence might have been heavily diluted when finally arriving in their respective destinations, for Baltoslavic in the relative North East, for Daco-Thracian in the Carpatho-Balkan/SEE. But this could have had, nevertheless, a big impact on the genetics, especially on the patrilineages. And also consider, that any kind of influence on the Balkans would have, usually, ended up being weaker than on the forest steppe and forest regions of the North East. Just like Corded Ware, the impact of a higher developed group on the North East is usually bigger, than on the much more populous and developed South East. That was true for the initial steppe expansion, it was true for later Slavs, it might have been true in the LBA-EIA transition as well.
    The numbers are just quite different, the potential exploitation or cooperaton of conquerors and locals too. I'm not actually talking about Balkan people moving to the North East, I'm talking about people in between influencing both, but the North East probably more than the South East, simply because of the numbers and cultural level.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-17-2021 at 09:58 AM.

  18. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Aspar (06-17-2021),  leonardo (06-17-2021),  parastais (06-17-2021),  Ryukendo (06-17-2021)

Page 158 of 341 FirstFirst ... 58108148156157158159160168208258 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Medieval Pashtun Samples
    By J Man in forum Central
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-28-2020, 05:37 AM
  2. G25 Distance Maps to selected Early Medieval Samples
    By ph2ter in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 05-09-2020, 02:33 PM
  3. Early Medieval Czech DNA (years 600-900 AD)
    By Tomenable in forum Central
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 04-19-2018, 01:07 PM
  4. Early Medieval Germanic barrow burials
    By JonikW in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-31-2018, 12:34 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-27-2016, 06:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •