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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1671
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, in the regarding of Krakauer Berg, I wrote on Arza's blog as follows:

    Krakauer Berg are medieval Sorbs. On the other hand, the Sorbs are Kashubians who have moved to Lusatia. We are 100% sure about this, because it is confirmed by two completely independent studies of the Sorbs and Kashubians - Rębała's and Balanowski's. At the same time, in the Budnik research, the northern Kashubians grouped with Lithuanians, while the southern - with Poles.

    Therefore, it seems to me that the Kashubians themselves may suffice to explain the genetic variation of Krakauer Berg.
    I do not know the Balanowski study but regarding the Rebala study I do not see how a study on modern Y-DNA from 2013 can shed light on the origins of medieval samples from 1100 CE, found rather far away from the historic Sorbian area. Let alone being 100% sure.

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  3. #1672
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    South Slavs and Pannonian Slavs come from Penkovka culture, central Ukraine. They must have still been largely proto-Slavic, at least in the northern Balkans.
    The first Slavs that arrived in the Balkans were from Ipoteshti-Candesti culture and these were mix from both Prague-Korchak and Penkovka but with more dominant Prague-Korchak elements. The description of Jordanes about the Sclavenoi and their habitual area during the 6th century, fits completely with the Prague-Korchak and Ipoteshti-Candesti cultures.

    Even then, it's not accurate to talk about the South Slavs as a uniform and homogenous entity because linguistically and genetically wise there are big differences among them. Linguistically wise, there are three subgroups among the South Slavs, Slovenians, Serbo-Croats and Bulgaro-Macedonians.
    Genetically wise, if we look deeper into the I-Y3120, R-Z280 and R-M458 subclades of the South Slavs there are some issues arising when it comes to their suppose same origin as you say from the Penkovka culture.

    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120-2/

    When it comes to the structure of I-Y3120 among the South Slavs, the most frequent subclades are I-PH908 and I-Z17855 with Z17855 having bigger frequency in North Macedonia, Bulgaria and Montenegro(7-9%) than in Serbia(3%), Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia(0-3%).
    On the other hand, PH908 picks in Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro(23-42%) and having less frequency in N.Macedonia, Bulgaria and Slovenia(5-12%).

    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/
    Even when it comes to R1a Slavic related subclades there is no uniformity:


    As it looks by it, the Slovenes, the Croats, the Serbs and the Bosniaks all have lot more of R-Z280 and especially R-CTS1211 than anything else, while the Bulgarians seem to have equal amount of R-Z280 and R-M458. This situation among the Bulgarians reminds more of the picture among the Poles and the Czechs, or the West Slavs while that of the former reminds more of the East Slavs.

    On the other hand, PH908 seems to be more common among the West Slavs while Z17855 among the East Slavs.

    All in all, this complex picture suggests different migratory events and origins of the Slavic groups ancestral to the South Slavs.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  5. #1673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    The first Slavs that arrived in the Balkans were from Ipoteshti-Candesti culture and these were mix from both Prague-Korchak and Penkovka but with more dominant Prague-Korchak elements. The description of Jordanes about the Sclavenoi and their habitual area during the 6th century, fits completely with the Prague-Korchak and Ipoteshti-Candesti cultures.

    Even then, it's not accurate to talk about the South Slavs as a uniform and homogenous entity because linguistically and genetically wise there are big differences among them. Linguistically wise, there are three subgroups among the South Slavs, Slovenians, Serbo-Croats and Bulgaro-Macedonians.
    Genetically wise, if we look deeper into the I-Y3120, R-Z280 and R-M458 subclades of the South Slavs there are some issues arising when it comes to their suppose same origin as you say from the Penkovka culture.

    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120-2/

    When it comes to the structure of I-Y3120 among the South Slavs, the most frequent subclades are I-PH908 and I-Z17855 with Z17855 having bigger frequency in North Macedonia, Bulgaria and Montenegro(7-9%) than in Serbia(3%), Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia(0-3%).
    On the other hand, PH908 picks in Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro(23-42%) and having less frequency in N.Macedonia, Bulgaria and Slovenia(5-12%).

    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/
    Even when it comes to R1a Slavic related subclades there is no uniformity:


    As it looks by it, the Slovenes, the Croats, the Serbs and the Bosniaks all have lot more of R-Z280 and especially R-CTS1211 than anything else, while the Bulgarians seem to have equal amount of R-Z280 and R-M458. This situation among the Bulgarians reminds more of the picture among the Poles and the Czechs, or the West Slavs while that of the former reminds more of the East Slavs.

    On the other hand, PH908 seems to be more common among the West Slavs while Z17855 among the East Slavs.

    All in all, this complex picture suggests different migratory events and origins of the Slavic groups ancestral to the South Slavs.
    Very surprising Baltic R1a results!
    M458 > Z92 in Balts. M458 >> Z92 in Latvians. When in Russia Z92 > M458.

    Maybe M458 is not specifically Slavic? Or it is the sample?

  6. #1674
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    Chnodomar.

    Rębała:

    "BATWING of the Slavic populations of Kaszuby and Lusatia provided convergent MCMC chains with unimodal distribution and revealed that their divergence took place 1.7 kya (95% confidence intervals: 1.4–2.1 kya) and was preceded by 0.6 ky of demographic expansion with a 4.2% growth rate (Table 4)."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/

    Balanowski:

    "But the Sorbs managed to preserve their gene pool and not dissolve into the numerous nations surrounding them. The map of genetic distances from their gene pool (Fig. 5.20) completely reflects the general "West-East Slavic" landscape. And from the maps of the whole series, its landscape is the closest to the map of distances from Kashubians (Fig. 5.17)..."

    http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/?page_id=5467

  7. #1675
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    Chnodomar, archeogenomics is a very useful tool, but it has many limitations. The main limitation is the availability of biological material. Archeogenomics will tell us nothing about the genetic history of the population that cultivated the cremation rite like the Sorbs and Kashubians. But all this history is written in modern DNA; you just need to read it.

  8. #1676
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    Leonardo, everyone here is fascinated by the paternal lines. I understand this, because it is always about a closer or more distant forefather. But individual subclades have spread through what Ringbauer calls individual migrations. It can be both single individuals and individual clans - merchants, settlers, soldiers, warriors, mercenaries, travelers and adventurers.

    So it is impossible to draw more general conclusions from single paternal lines. This can only be done on the basis of a wide cross-section of lines from dense sampling.

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  10. #1677
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Rębała:

    "BATWING of the Slavic populations of Kaszuby and Lusatia provided convergent MCMC chains with unimodal distribution and revealed that their divergence took place 1.7 kya (95% confidence intervals: 1.42.1 kya) and was preceded by 0.6 ky of demographic expansion with a 4.2% growth rate (Table 4)."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/
    Rębała has only tried to estimate when the population ancestral to both the Kashubians and the Sorbs could have lived, and the results quoted above are perfectly consistent with the Kiev culture (1.7 kya = 300 AD) as a potential source population. Importantly, Rębała has never suggested that the Sorbs descend from the Kashubians (or that the Kashubians descend from the Sorbs).

    It is worth noting that these two West Slavic populations have very dffferent Y-DNA composition. While in both cases the dominant haplogroup is R1a (>60%), it is mostly CTS11962 and L365 among the Kashubians, and predominantly L260 among the Sorbs.

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  12. #1678
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    Leonardo, Pomerania was the Slavic window to the world. So if someone from the West has Slavic roots, then his last Slavic ancestor will most likely come from Pomerania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Balanowski:

    "But the Sorbs managed to preserve their gene pool and not dissolve into the numerous nations surrounding them. The map of genetic distances from their gene pool (Fig. 5.20) completely reflects the general "West-East Slavic" landscape. And from the maps of the whole series, its landscape is the closest to the map of distances from Kashubians (Fig. 5.17)..."

    http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/?page_id=5467
    When discussing the Proto-Slavic-like modern populations, I would point to what Balanovsky wrote about the Belarusians and Russians:

    "Отличить генетический ландшафт белорусского генофонда (рис. 5.13) от южнорусского (рис. 5.12) практически невозможно: они почти идентичны. Можно лишь заметить, что зеленые области генетического сходства с белорусами еще более равномерно покрывают практически весь ареал западно-восточнославянского ландшафта — и Украину, и основную часть исторического русского ареала, и Польшу, и восточную Германию, и Словакию.

    Это заставляет выдвинуть неожиданную гипотезу, что именно эти два генофонда – белорусский и русский – наиболее полно воспроизводят общие черты единства Y-хромосомных генофондов западных и восточных славян. На других картах западно-восточнославянской серии мы увидим те же основные очертания ареала генетического сходства, но области наибольшего сходства, окрашенные насыщенно-зелеными тонами, наиболее обширны и наиболее равномерно покрывают этот ареал только на этих двух картах генетических ландшафтов – русском и белорусском."

    Google translation:
    "It is almost impossible to distinguish the genetic landscape of the Belarusian gene pool (Fig. 5.13) from the "South Russian" (Fig. 5.12): they are almost identical. One can only notice that green areas of genetic similarity with Belarusians even more evenly cover almost the entire area of ​​the “West-East Slavic” landscape - both Ukraine, and the main part of the historical Russian area, and Poland, and eastern Germany, and Slovakia.

    This forces us to put forward an unexpected hypothesis that these two gene pools - Belarusian and Russian - most fully reproduce the common features of the unity of the Y-chromosomal gene pools of the Western and Eastern Slavs. On other maps of the "West-East Slavic" series, we will see the same basic outlines of the genetic similarity area, but the areas of greatest similarity, colored with rich green tones, are the most extensive and most evenly cover this area only on these two maps of genetic landscapes - Russian and Belarusian."

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  15. #1680
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    "...the areas that most recreate the "average" gene pool of Poles (painted in rich dark green tones) are slightly shifted to the west: they are more typical of the population of the western half of Poland, neighboring populations of Slovakia and the most eastern regions of Germany than in the eastern fringes of Poland

    Kashubs are a sub-ethnic group of Poles living in the north of Poland. It is believed to come from the ancient Slavic tribe of Pomeranians. Its modern gene pool shows maximum genetic similarity with populations along the southern coast of the Baltic Sea (in eastern Germany, central and eastern Poland). At the same time, it preserves the memory of its genetic link with Poles, Slovaks and a wide range of Belarusian and geographically distant Russian populations."

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