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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #1901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Agreed, but we are not there yet because all the key Urnfield and especially Lusatian areas are still missing from the record.
    That individual is like a Gaelic Viking with a Scandinavian patrilineage. He is from a fringe region, not the central and Eastern areas of the grouping. That he has an at least associated haplogroup suffices and is encouraging for the theory.
    Let's wait for samples from the central and Eastern provinces, those are decisive.
    Are they coming?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Are they coming?
    I have no idea and am still waiting for the results of the Pannonian and Bulgarian studies for which we got a preview.
    I just hope so and probably David knows more, considering what he said could be interpreted that way.

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  5. #1903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I have no idea and am still waiting for the results of the Pannonian and Bulgarian studies for which we got a preview.
    I just hope so and probably David knows more, considering what he said could be interpreted that way.
    He is not talking about Pannonia and rather of a region "East of the Carpathians" (West Ukraine?, Komarov?) else he would also not disagree so much with Arza, who locates Proto-Balto-Slavs in the Carpathian Basin. Also Balto-Slavs are described as "intermediate" so this "southern" pop was probably Para-Balto-Slavic like Balt_BA if it really turns out to have Balto-Slavic related drift and Y-DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    He is not talking about Pannonia and rather of a region "East of the Carpathians" (West Ukraine?, Komarov?) else he would also not disagree so much with Arza, who locates Proto-Balto-Slavs in the Carpathian Basin. Also Balto-Slavs are described as "intermediate" so this "southern" pop was probably Para-Balto-Slavic like Balt_BA if it really turns out to have Balto-Slavic related drift and Y-DNA.
    I just mentioned the still open studies. Urnfield provinces were in control of everything West of the steppe people at that time. North East of the Carparthians was at least a sphere of influence.
    Compare with this map:
    https://nat.museum-digital.de/index....ekt&oges=74934

    Pannonia is indeed out of question.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-24-2021 at 12:01 PM.

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  9. #1905
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    Croatia European Union
    The following work is not strictly related to the current discussion, as it covers the end of 8th century, but it might put some additional light onto the overall history of Slavic migrations. Author puts the Croatian arrival to Dalmatia and Panonia into the context of Charlemagne military advance towards south-east.

    Source: Ante Milošević: "Doseljenje Hrvata u Dalmaciju krajem 8. stoljeća: mač K-tipa iz Koljana kao mogući dokaz"

    https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/327618

    There are some nice maps in the document (fig. 10, fig. 16). This view is in opposition to the traditional approach to the migration of South Slavs.

    This is also in accordance to the newly proposed genetic division of Slavic languages by R. Matasović (four groups).
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 06-24-2021 at 12:29 PM.

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  11. #1906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    He is not talking about Pannonia and rather of a region "East of the Carpathians" (West Ukraine?, Komarov?) else he would also not disagree so much with Arza, who locates Proto-Balto-Slavs in the Carpathian Basin. Also Balto-Slavs are described as "intermediate" so this "southern" pop was probably Para-Balto-Slavic like Balt_BA if it really turns out to have Balto-Slavic related drift and Y-DNA.
    Arza gave a hint that it might be this sample(or one of the samples)
    https://iansa.eu/papers/IANSA-2011-01-nikitin.pdf

    Gava-Holigrady, SW Ukraine.

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  13. #1907
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    Arza gave a hint that it might be this sample(or one of the samples)
    https://iansa.eu/papers/IANSA-2011-01-nikitin.pdf

    Gava-Holigrady, SW Ukraine.
    Do we not have actually a Gava culture sample from Hungary already? Or is this another culture? They rather look Hun_BA or Tollense-like with not much drift towards Balto-Slavs.

    Distance to: HUN_Gava_BA:I20771
    0.03157287 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20743
    0.04620262 DEU_Tollense_BA
    0.04627580 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20746
    0.04675110 HUN_LBA
    0.04925464 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20745
    0.05024223 HUN_Mako_EBA
    0.05234458 HUN_Hatvan-Fuzesabony_BA:I20772
    0.05341667 Scythian_MDA_o
    0.05347319 Scythian_HUN
    0.05450117 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
    0.05481284 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
    0.05523603 FRA_Grand_Est_EBA
    0.05532749 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.05554655 DEU_Lech_EBA
    0.05569699 Bell_Beaker_CZE
    0.05596570 Migration_POHOH40
    0.05603843 DEU_Singen_EBA
    0.05657816 Migration_POHOH36
    0.05693564 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
    0.05701474 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
    0.05738014 SWE_BA
    0.05751775 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
    0.05791695 SWE_LN
    0.05796843 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
    0.05806051 CZE_Early_Slav

    Distance to: HUN_Gava_BA:I20771
    0.04727892 Slovakian
    0.05270727 Czech
    0.05271682 Austrian
    0.05480176 German
    0.05485385 Hungarian
    0.05609265 Croatian
    0.05633749 Slovenian
    0.05673475 German_East
    0.05720099 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    0.05856916 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.05933535 Polish
    0.05950432 Ukrainian_B
    0.05994720 Bosnian
    0.06074054 Swedish
    0.06103043 Moldovan_o
    0.06271947 Ukrainian
    0.06298608 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.06347429 French_Nord
    0.06361960 Danish
    0.06373002 French_Brittany
    0.06387423 French_Alsace
    0.06441244 Welsh
    0.06478710 Belgian
    0.06495634 Dutch
    0.06503729 Montenegrin



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  15. #1908
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    Coldmountains, the genome was supposed to be most similar to Slovak, so that's right.

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  17. #1909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Do we not have actually a Gava culture sample from Hungary already? Or is this another culture? They rather look Hun_BA or Tollense-like with not much drift towards Balto-Slavs.

    Distance to: HUN_Gava_BA:I20771
    0.03157287 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20743
    0.04620262 DEU_Tollense_BA
    0.04627580 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20746
    0.04675110 HUN_LBA
    0.04925464 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20745
    0.05024223 HUN_Mako_EBA
    0.05234458 HUN_Hatvan-Fuzesabony_BA:I20772
    0.05341667 Scythian_MDA_o
    0.05347319 Scythian_HUN
    0.05450117 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
    0.05481284 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
    0.05523603 FRA_Grand_Est_EBA
    0.05532749 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.05554655 DEU_Lech_EBA
    0.05569699 Bell_Beaker_CZE
    0.05596570 Migration_POHOH40
    0.05603843 DEU_Singen_EBA
    0.05657816 Migration_POHOH36
    0.05693564 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
    0.05701474 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
    0.05738014 SWE_BA
    0.05751775 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
    0.05791695 SWE_LN
    0.05796843 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
    0.05806051 CZE_Early_Slav

    Distance to: HUN_Gava_BA:I20771
    0.04727892 Slovakian
    0.05270727 Czech
    0.05271682 Austrian
    0.05480176 German
    0.05485385 Hungarian
    0.05609265 Croatian
    0.05633749 Slovenian
    0.05673475 German_East
    0.05720099 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    0.05856916 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.05933535 Polish
    0.05950432 Ukrainian_B
    0.05994720 Bosnian
    0.06074054 Swedish
    0.06103043 Moldovan_o
    0.06271947 Ukrainian
    0.06298608 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.06347429 French_Nord
    0.06361960 Danish
    0.06373002 French_Brittany
    0.06387423 French_Alsace
    0.06441244 Welsh
    0.06478710 Belgian
    0.06495634 Dutch
    0.06503729 Montenegrin


    it should be the same culture. Maybe Gava included 2 different genetic clusters south and north of the Carpathians.

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  19. #1910
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    it should be the same culture. Maybe Gava included 2 different genetic clusters south and north of the Carpathians.
    Possible but if it is from this timeframe (500-1000 B.C?) it is also too late to say much about Proto-Balto-Slavs and could easily represent some recent migration from the northeast + Hun_BA + Halstatt-like admix making him look like Slovaks or West Ukrainians, who are also such kind of mix just forming 1000 years later. Gava Hungary lacks Balto-Slavic-related ancestry, what makes me thinking Holigrady in Ukraine if showing it was mixed and not a local old population. Samples from sites of the same culture likely show a common genetic element (HUN_BA admixture ?). It would be more relevant to get something from 1000-2000 B.C and from Trziniec-Komarov. Arza also mentioned that there is a big chance the sample is misdated

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