Page 206 of 345 FirstFirst ... 106156196204205206207208216256306 ... LastLast
Results 2,051 to 2,060 of 3447

Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #2051
    Registered Users
    Posts
    542

    Riverman, a genetically West Slavic population has simply lived in Central Europe since the Bronze Age. The genetic West Slavs are not a medieval mixture of Belarusians and Germans, as some colleagues would like to see.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to ambron For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (06-28-2021)

  3. #2052
    Registered Users
    Posts
    950
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y20359
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c9a

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    My version is Huns invasion that destroyed Oium and opened gates for Slavic spread from Kiev culture:
    “The Romans became aware of the Huns when the latter's invasion of the Pontic steppes forced thousands of Goths to move to the Lower Danube to seek refuge in the Roman Empire in 376”.
    But linguistically, why do most linguists distinguish between Pre and Proto (wiki article's words) starting around 300 CE and what caused that shift? Between 300 and 600, there are the Goths, then the Huns wreaking havoc in the area. Perhaps an influx of another linguistically similar group who tweaked the Slavic language?

  4. #2053
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,701
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    What is background (cultural, archeological, dates) for those Vekerzug’an Scythians?
    Current historical and cultural studies connect
    triple-edged arrowheads to invastions of
    Eastern nomads. They were usually labeled
    as Scythian, along with the invasion of Silesia
    at the end of the Hallstatt culture (newest:
    Chytráček – Danielisová et al. 2010, 164). Yet,
    these arrowheads did not have to be made by
    Scythian people, because in the mixed Vekerzug
    culture these arrowheads are a local Carpathian
    product.
    This might be
    explained by their intensive, and probably longterm,
    usage from the 6th to the beginning of the
    4th century. We may not exclude a possibility
    that three triple-edged arrowheads are one of
    the marks of the destruction layer of the hillfort
    Závist (Lhota); all buildings in its acropolis, actually.
    There are also marks of active use of arrowheads.
    Specifically, these marks are broken tips,
    deformed shape, or discovery of other fighting
    equipment nearby (iron spearhead). In situ there
    is evidence of burned place (Drda – Rybová 2008,
    65–66). Is it possible to connect the occurrence
    of triple-edged arrowheads in Závist with the
    end of the hillfort through a violent action? So
    far “the end” of Závist (and other hillforts) in
    a shift of stages LT A–B has not been precisely
    explained. It has been only connected with a migration
    of population from Bohemia to northern
    Italy (Venclová ed. 2008, 158).
    Bow with metal arrowheads was not a common
    part of the material culture of (Celtic) population
    of the end of the Hallstatt Period and the
    beginning of the La Tčne Period in Bohemia,
    although double-winglet arrowheads were used
    since the Middle Bronze Age. It looks like in
    the beginning (Ha D – LT A) only the elite class
    used these arrowheads, while later they become
    more common. Since the LT C stage only iron
    arrowheads were manufactured.

    If triple-edged arrowheads would be interpreted
    as an innovation or import of Vekerzug
    and other Eastern origin than we can conclude
    these were followed by other items; e.g. snakelike
    earrings/temple rings, “Eastern” iron axes
    etc. These artifacts could in this case indicate
    longer cultural influence that began in the 6th
    century BC, be the strongest in the 5th century
    and end in the very beginning of the 4th
    century BC.
    There are two possible interpretations
    (Fig. 7):
    1. „Scythian” items could be consequential
    imports from the Eurasian area or imports of
    the Vekerzug culture.
    2. „Scythian” military artifacts are evidence
    of an invasion of nomadic people. It is possible
    that these artifacts that came to Silesia, from
    east to west, and follows the destruction of hillforts
    ,
    could have reflection in Bohemia, in an
    area from the Jizera River, through Westerncentral
    Bohemia to the Ore Mountains and further
    to the South.
    After the raid
    of the Vekerzug and other Eastern cultures in
    Ha D2, there are in Ha D3 generally no more
    known. There was also a general disappearance
    of nobility, especially their graves, which
    greatly contrasts with Ha C2 – Ha D1.
    So basically this incursion either directly or indirectly, due to a social revolution from Hallstatt to La Tene, eliminated the aristocratic princely caste of Hallstatt.

    We assume that the contact
    the Vekerzug and other Eastern cultures had
    with Hallstatt societies in Ha D2 was very destructive,
    which was caused by nomads attacking
    centers – small fortified hillforts. On them
    we find „Scythian militaria“, destructions and
    fires, accumulation of Hallstatt weapons, and
    dead bodies. Long established landscape structure,
    including business network, was very deranged.
    It is conceivable that in Ha D2 – Ha
    D3 occurred in Moravia some form of subordination
    to Carpathian Vekerzug centers. In
    Ha D3 there has not been identified any Hallstatt
    power structure, we do not know fortified
    hillforts. This situation contrasts diametrically
    with the Western European Hallstatt, where
    escalatations of expressiveness of nobility and
    its societies even enter into written history as
    the Celts.
    We
    cannot explain this context any differently than
    as evidence of fighting between native Hallstatt
    societies and an invasive aggressor. Destruction
    of hillforts is linked with a disappearance of
    manifestations of a nobility...
    https://www.academia.edu/36250549/Th...3%A9_republice

    So basically the rise of the West and the new Celtic element can also be explained by the destruction of the Eastern princely ruled centers by the Iranian nomads. Their indirect influence, the more direct Greek contacts to the Western Hallstatt provinces, a complete shift of the power structure caused by this destruction. And basically something very similar happened earlier, at the beginning of the Iron Age, with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Both times the Eastern raids and conquests were decisive. So the Vekerzug culture made world history, even if, like so many other nomads, they themselves were later defeated and disappared. Like the Magyars in their aggressive, pre-Christian phase, they had a centre from which they made raids and subordinated, rather losely, locals. But unlike the big settlements and colonisations of some Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Daco-Thracian, Celtic, Germanic or Slavic kind, they left probably less of an impression on the long run with their lower numbers and different lifestyle, with the military superiority they couldn't keep up on the long run.

    There is visible late steppe influence on La Tene Celts too, their art (animal style), probably the horse cult in some respects and others. Both the formation of Hallstatt with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the beginning of La Tene with Scythian incursions seem to be no coincidence to me. Directly and indirectly they caused a transformation of the affected populations, I wouldn't even wonder if foreign elements became part of the new elites, especially in Hallstatt, but possibly even in areas of La Tene. Its the same with Avars causing the movement and transformation of a lot of the Slavic people, while largely disappearing themselves. Probably those Iranians made a bigger impression, but rather not.

  5. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Alain (06-28-2021),  Coldmountains (06-27-2021),  leonardo (06-27-2021),  Michał (06-28-2021),  parastais (06-28-2021),  ph2ter (06-27-2021),  Psynome (06-28-2021)

  6. #2054
    Registered Users
    Posts
    778
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    So what is it is that makes those Hungarian "Scythians" Iranian exactly?

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Michał (06-28-2021),  Ryukendo (06-28-2021)

  8. #2055
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,701
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    So what is it is that makes those Hungarian "Scythians" Iranian exactly?
    The fact that most of their cultural specifics and complete package which distinguishes them from the local CEE spectrum was derived from the North Pontic sphere and the Iranians there.
    Whether they actually spoke an Iranian dialect and how much of their genetics is Iranian is up to debate, to more results and comparisons. But culturally and in comparison to the locals they are heavily Scythian/Iranian shifted.

    Similar to the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, which wouldn't have existed without the direct steppe contribution, even if it would turn out the human carriers were for the most part Daco-Thracian locals.

    Culturally the steppe shift is in both cases very clear and such a stark influence usually needs demic diffusion. Which percentage and whether there were intermediaries is case specific.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-28-2021 at 09:12 AM.

  9. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Alain (06-28-2021),  Coldmountains (06-28-2021),  JMcB (06-28-2021),  leonardo (06-28-2021),  Michał (06-28-2021),  parastais (06-28-2021)

  10. #2056
    Registered Users
    Posts
    259

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post

    There is visible late steppe influence on La Tene Celts too, their art (animal style), probably the horse cult in some respects and others. Both the formation of Hallstatt with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the beginning of La Tene with Scythian incursions seem to be no coincidence to me. Directly and indirectly they caused a transformation of the affected populations, I wouldn't even wonder if foreign elements became part of the new elites, especially in Hallstatt, but possibly even in areas of La Tene. Its the same with Avars causing the movement and transformation of a lot of the Slavic people, while largely disappearing themselves. Probably those Iranians made a bigger impression, but rather not.
    After all, we need an explanation of how and where the Celtic cultures learned mounted warfare. It had to come from somewhere, and once introduced it's hard to imagine it not triggering a cascade of cultural changes.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Psynome For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (06-28-2021)

  12. #2057
    Registered Users
    Posts
    778
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The fact that most of their cultural specifics and complete package which distinguishes them from the local CEE spectrum was derived from the North Pontic sphere and the Iranians their.
    Whether the actually spoke an Iranian dialect and how much of their genetics is Iranian is up to debate, more results and comparisons. But culturally and in comparison to the locals they are heavily Scythian/Iranian shifted.

    Similar to the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, which wouldn't have existed without the direct steppe contribution, even if it would turn out the human carriers were for the most part Daco-Thracian locals.

    Culturally the steppe shift is in both cases very clear and such a stark influence usually needs demic diffusion. Which percentage and whether there were intermediaries is case specific.
    Outside of military influences where is the significant pontic package? How is it represented in the traditions and way of life of the regular people there? Nearly everything is pretty much local, as were the genetics of all the Hungarian 'Scythians' so far. So why should we assume an Iranian language or identity for them?

    The exact same thing is seen east of Hungary, more noticeable even and we know the people there were Getae, and spoke Thracian languages.

    We know Scythians had a presence, a military one predominantly and may have been part of the upper strata in the region to a degree. It also is likely that many of the elites were local peoples who emulated Scythian traditions to a degree and copied their military traits (but kept their own ethnolinguistic identity) - something also seen further east again.

    There is a reason that Herodotus did not include this region within Scythia or referred to its inhabitants as Scythians. It is only modern archaeology which gives this a Scythian character, and most descriptions are pretty careful about assuming an ethnic identity of the people associated with the artefacts - precisely as there was such a strong local character.

    Calling these samples or the Vekerzug period as a whole Scythian in a cultural is already a stretch because it was Scythoid at best (thus only of partial Scythian influence), but then to assume an Iranian identity for them is even more of a stretch if you'd ask me. Especially when you consider the locations where the samples were uncovered.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-28-2021 at 02:03 AM.

  13. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     altvred (06-28-2021),  ambron (06-28-2021),  Coldmountains (06-28-2021),  JMcB (06-28-2021),  Kulin (06-28-2021),  leonardo (06-28-2021),  Michał (06-28-2021),  Psynome (06-28-2021),  Riverman (06-28-2021),  Ryukendo (06-28-2021)

  14. #2058
    Registered Users
    Posts
    357
    Sex
    Location
    Coventry, Rhode Island
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP445
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2b

    England Germany Palatinate Italy Sicily Ireland Munster Acadia Mercia
    Pre-Slavic clades of I2a-Din and M458 show a central European origin of these particular clades. Goths and Vandals even spread M458 clades around. Several subclades of L1029 never set foot in the Kiev Culture. It is probable that autosomally the Slavs are predominantly Kiev Culture origin, but not for certain male lines associated with them.

  15. #2059
    Banned
    Posts
    672
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Italian, 1/2 Armenian
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    Pre-Slavic clades of I2a-Din and M458 show a central European origin of these particular clades. Goths and Vandals even spread M458 clades around. Several subclades of L1029 never set foot in the Kiev Culture. It is probable that autosomally the Slavs are predominantly Kiev Culture origin, but not for certain male lines associated with them.
    Which Goth and Vandal samples are M458?

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to davit For This Useful Post:

     Chnodomar (06-28-2021),  Michał (06-28-2021)

  17. #2060
    Registered Users
    Posts
    542

    Joey, the Slavs certainly do not come from Kiev culture, if we are to understand this origin as a pre-Slavic homeland. Combined linguistic, archaeological and genetic data contradict this.

Page 206 of 345 FirstFirst ... 106156196204205206207208216256306 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. G25 Distance Maps to selected Early Medieval Samples
    By ph2ter in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 82
    Last Post: 09-19-2021, 10:48 AM
  2. Medieval Pashtun Samples
    By J Man in forum Central
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-28-2020, 05:37 AM
  3. Early Medieval Czech DNA (years 600-900 AD)
    By Tomenable in forum Central
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 04-19-2018, 01:07 PM
  4. Early Medieval Germanic barrow burials
    By JonikW in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-31-2018, 12:34 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-27-2016, 06:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •