Page 25 of 154 FirstFirst ... 1523242526273575125 ... LastLast
Results 241 to 250 of 1539

Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #241
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,091
    Ethnicity
    Venetharum natio populosa
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-L1029>YP263>Y2912*
    mtDNA (M)
    H141,U5a1b1j(W)

    Poland Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    This reminds me that we (likely) have aDNA of a Polabian Slav on Yfull under R-PH3519, VK274 - a late Viking Age sample from the island of Langeland, Denmark.

    There's another sample from the Viking-Age study, VK139 (also from Denmark, Funen, to be precise), which is downstream of L1029.



    So the Danish connection could explain the presence of haplogroups like YP263 in Britain and Ireland.
    BTW, why these samples haven't been added to YFull?

    Sample: VK309 / Sweden_Skara 53
    Location: Varnhem, Skara, Sweden
    Age: Viking 10-12th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-YP6189 (under R-L1029)
    mtDNA: K1b1c

    Sample: VK139 / Denmark_Galgedil ANG
    Location: Galgedil, Funen, Denmark
    Age: Viking 9-11th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-BY32008 (under R-L1029)
    mtDNA: J1c3k

    Sample: VK210 / Poland_Kraków-Zakrzówek gr. 24
    Location: Kraków, Poland
    Age: Medieval 11-13th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: I-Z16971 (under I-Y3120)
    mtDNA: H5e1a1

    Sample: VK453 / Gotland_Kopparsvik-134
    Location: Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden
    Age: Viking 900-1050 CE
    Y-DNA: R-YP256 (under R-L260)
    mtDNA: H8c

    Sample: VK494 / Poland_Sandomierz 1/13
    Location: Sandomierz, Poland
    Age: Viking 10-11th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-BY25698 (under R-L260)
    mtDNA: X2c2

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Waldemar For This Useful Post:

     Brent.B (04-23-2021),  Bygdedweller (04-23-2021),  JMcB (04-23-2021),  Korabi (04-23-2021),  leonardo (04-23-2021),  Michał (04-23-2021),  Mis (04-23-2021),  Riverman (04-23-2021)

  3. #242
    Registered Users
    Posts
    118
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    BTW, why these samples haven't been added to YFull?

    Sample: VK309 / Sweden_Skara 53
    Location: Varnhem, Skara, Sweden
    Age: Viking 10-12th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-YP6189 (under R-L1029)
    mtDNA: K1b1c

    Sample: VK139 / Denmark_Galgedil ANG
    Location: Galgedil, Funen, Denmark
    Age: Viking 9-11th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-BY32008 (under R-L1029)
    mtDNA: J1c3k

    Sample: VK210 / Poland_Kraków-Zakrzówek gr. 24
    Location: Kraków, Poland
    Age: Medieval 11-13th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: I-Z16971 (under I-Y3120)
    mtDNA: H5e1a1

    Sample: VK453 / Gotland_Kopparsvik-134
    Location: Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden
    Age: Viking 900-1050 CE
    Y-DNA: R-YP256 (under R-L260)
    mtDNA: H8c

    Sample: VK494 / Poland_Sandomierz 1/13
    Location: Sandomierz, Poland
    Age: Viking 10-11th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-BY25698 (under R-L260)
    mtDNA: X2c2
    3 new samples were added to the mostly Polish seeming YP4068 upstream BY32008. One is Hungarian, one is Adyghe from Karachay-Cherkessia and the 3rd doesn't have a flag yet.

    So this seems like a new Adyghe sample as the first is in YP263* for now.

  4. #243
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    366
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y33
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-Y6938

    Russian Federation Russia Tatarstan Arms Russia Mordovia Timurid
    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Głuchoniemcy
    lol, nice pun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    BTW, why these samples haven't been added to YFull?

    Sample: VK309 / Sweden_Skara 53
    Location: Varnhem, Skara, Sweden
    Age: Viking 10-12th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-YP6189 (under R-L1029)
    mtDNA: K1b1c

    Sample: VK139 / Denmark_Galgedil ANG
    Location: Galgedil, Funen, Denmark
    Age: Viking 9-11th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-BY32008 (under R-L1029)
    mtDNA: J1c3k

    Sample: VK210 / Poland_Kraków-Zakrzówek gr. 24
    Location: Kraków, Poland
    Age: Medieval 11-13th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: I-Z16971 (under I-Y3120)
    mtDNA: H5e1a1

    Sample: VK453 / Gotland_Kopparsvik-134
    Location: Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden
    Age: Viking 900-1050 CE
    Y-DNA: R-YP256 (under R-L260)
    mtDNA: H8c

    Sample: VK494 / Poland_Sandomierz 1/13
    Location: Sandomierz, Poland
    Age: Viking 10-11th centuries CE
    Y-DNA: R-BY25698 (under R-L260)
    mtDNA: X2c2
    Not sure; probably insufficient coverage based on their own criteria, but some might have been overlooked just because of how many samples were published in that study.
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
    YDNA(M): E-Y6938

  5. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to altvred For This Useful Post:

     Brent.B (04-23-2021),  JMcB (04-23-2021),  leonardo (04-23-2021),  Michał (04-23-2021),  Waldemar (04-23-2021)

  6. #244
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,626
    Sex
    Location
    Republic of Moldova
    Ethnicity
    Moldovan/Romanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-PH908*, DYS561=15
    mtDNA (M)
    T2a1b1a

    Moldova Romania European Union
    Were any I-PH908 fellas found yet?
    Recent ancestry: 2/4 Central Moldova (Orhei district), 1/4 Southern Moldova (Cahul district), 1/4 Northern Moldova (Briceni district)
    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

  7. #245
    Registered Users
    Posts
    432
    Sex

    Greece
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    Perhaps a coincidental resemblance in at least some of these cases cannot be ruled out: cf. Chinese 裙 "skirt; apron; dress; petticoat" (Mandarin qśn, Cantonese kwan4) > Sino-Japanese kun ~ gun "a (pleated) skirt; skirt, hem, the bottom of a dress," Sino-Korean gun, Vietnamese quần "pants, shorts, briefs, panties, etc."
    Ah. Ok.. The attested meaning in these East Asian languages more closely resembles the one in Basque. But in East Asia it should be a wandewort, I think.

    As a Greek, I know at least that the Greek word more closely resembles the Ossetic one phonetically, which is a source that could make sense. For example concering the Late Latin word, a direction of borrowing Eastern Iranian > Greek > Latin seems possible but that might not be the case.

    Personally I believe it may not be coincidental. I believe there was a Palaeolithic language somewhere that should have had a word like ~gun with a meaning 'animal skin', 'fur'. (In Avestan there is also the meaning 'body hair')

    The point of the post though was that some of the loans are not real, some may be rather late etc. And I took that as an example because it seems to be among those that seem to be generally accepted. There are others which are ridiculous.

  8. #246
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,792
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Korabi View Post
    The greatest diversity for M458/L1029/I-Y3120 is mainly in Central Europe. In the case of M458, more specifically Poland. Only Poles have the greatest diversity of M458.
    What makes you say so? I hope you are not claiming this based on Underhill et al. (2010) who haven't studied all relevant populations (not to mention that he has also reported that haplogroup R1a shows the highest diversity in India - which we know is not true). According to Kushniarevich et al. (2012), who used the same methodology as Underhill, the diversity of R1a-M458 in Belarus is equal to that in Poland. Also, do you have any statistical data demnostrating that the diversity of I2a-Y3120 is higher in Poland than in Ukraine? I strongly doubt this would be the case.

    BTW, I am quite sure that the highest diversity of M458 (or even R1a/R1 as a whole) is in the United States of America

    Quote Originally Posted by Korabi View Post
    Today, L1029s greatest diversity is in Western and Northern Poland, including parts of East Germany.
    Again, I would be grateful for showing us which kind of statistical analysis this statement of yours is based on? I am not telling this is definitely wrong, only that I have never seen any data that would allow us to make such a conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korabi View Post
    If Generalissimo is correct and R-L1029 was found in Bohemian IA with "modern Scandinavian like ancestry", I'd say there's a chance of a northern spillover from Przeworzk.
    If confirmed, this would also suggest that neither Przeworsk nor L1029 were pre-Proto-Slavic or Proto-Slavic, although they could have somehow contributed (as a minority component) to the Slavic ethnogensis. I'm finding this scenario relatively unlikely (especially the Przeworsk part), but let's wait and see if the published data will support it.
    Last edited by Michał; 04-23-2021 at 04:18 PM.

  9. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Alain (04-23-2021),  Brent.B (04-23-2021),  JMcB (04-23-2021),  leonardo (04-23-2021),  Mis (04-23-2021),  Pribislav (04-23-2021),  Riverman (04-23-2021),  Ryukendo (06-02-2021),  Waldemar (04-23-2021)

  10. #247
    Registered Users
    Posts
    324
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    If confirmed, this would also suggest that neither Przeworsk nor L1029 were pre-Proto-Slavic or Proto-Slavic, although they could have somehow contributed (as a minority component) to the Slavic ethnogensis. I'm finding this scenario relatively unlikely (especially the Przeworsk part), but let's wait and see if the published data will support it.
    Please let me know if I am interpreting your statement incorrectly, but are you saying that if the rumored la Tene L1029 comes back Scandinavian like, that it would indicate L1029 was not a major contributor to the Kiev culture/early Slavs?

    If it is most similar to modern Scandinavians autosomally, but still has a good amount of balto-Slavic admixture (so like the opposite of LIB11?) then would that change the analysis?

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Brent.B For This Useful Post:

     leonardo (04-23-2021)

  12. #248
    Registered Users
    Posts
    118
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    What makes you say so? I hope you are not claiming this based on Underhill et al. (2010) who haven't studied all relevant populations (not to mention that he has also reported that the haplogroup R1a shows the highest diversity in India - which we know is not true). According to Kushniarevich et al. (2012), who used the same methodology as Underhill, the diversity of R1a-M458 in Belarus is equal to that in Poland. Also, do you have any statistical data demnostrating that the diversity of I2a-Y3120 is higher in Poland than in Ukraine? I strongly doubt this would be the case.

    BTW, I am quite sure that the highest diversity of M458 (or even R1a/R1 as a whole) is in the United States of America


    Again, I would be grateful for showing us which kind of statistical analysis is this statement of yours based on? I am not telling this is definitely wrong, only that I have never seen any data that would allow us to make such a conclusion.


    If confirmed, this would also suggest that neither Przeworsk nor L1029 were pre-Proto-Slavic or Proto-Slavic, although they could have somehow contributed (as a minority component) to the Slavic ethnogensis. I'm finding this scenario relatively unlikely (especially the Przeworsk part), but let's wait and see if the published data will support it.
    You have also been claiming for years that the highest diversity of R-L1029 is in Belarus and Western Russia. However, the overwhelming majority of Belarusian and Russian M458 falls almost exclusively in YP417 and YP515. What is this diversity because I have never seen it, and you have been saying this for a while.

    A simple look at the ftdna block tree including y-full and various project resources show a plethora of diverse haplotypes in L1029 and M458 in general being in Poland and the complete opposite in Russia and Belarusia where this is mostly the aforementioned branches. Almost overwhelmingly so.

    No, a couple of studies from 2013-2018 had referenced Poland as being the location with the greatest diversity in R-M458/R-L1029. Most people besides you don't argue this. I'll have to find and post the links once I do. It is Poles, not Belarusians which have appeared up and downstream most R-M458 and even Pre-M458 branches.

    If R-L1029 is confirmed in IA Czech Bohemia, it really wouldn't matter what culture it ends up, it still would prove you incorrect. The same as you were wrong in saying M458 would never appear west before migration, when it appeared further West than anyone even suspected(Singen, Germany), including this supposed L1029 in IA Bohemia(pending release/confirmation). None of which supports what you're saying.

    Your best argument is using autosomal genetics results from post migration R-L1029 as late as the 10th-12th century to claim this must mean they come from Belarus and Ukraine. Using autosomal genetics as an argument is quite flimsy where it concerns Y-DNA migration. A simple example I can give is a half Scando-Finnish, Half Albanian appearing autosomally Montenegrin/South Slavic, with no actual Motnenegrin ancestry.

    The only pre migration Y-DNA for M458 is presumably connected to late Hallstatt. Whilst an outlier he was superficially South Slavic like, lacking anything to make him Belarusian or Lithuanian like aside from a small but noticable IA Baltic admixture component. Interestingly another pre-migration sample from this very paper in this thread also appeared similarly "South Slavic or Croatian like".

    R-L1029 if confirmed IA East La Tene would show a continuation between late Hallstatt and La Tene. However, the supposed Scandinavian like ancestry raises some questions. The M458 from IA Singen, Germany was low coverage too. So, there's no confirmation it was basal and not further downstream. I believe Pribislav noticed some SNPs ancestral to downstream clades as well.

    We have no ancient DNA for M458 or L1029 in Belarus and no modern Belarusians in any basal M458, or pre-M458 to establish this statement of yours either. Theres not even diversity under L1029 outside of YP417 in modern Belarusians unless you have access to samples most people don't?

    You have mentioned this Belarusian origin for a while and have yet to show all these unknown L1029 or M458 branches they carry that seem absent from the tree or more diverse than Poles.

    As for Y3120. I meant more specifically CTS10228. I think Y3120 is most diverse in Western Ukraine and Southern Poland, no?
    Last edited by Korabi; 04-23-2021 at 05:25 PM.

  13. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Korabi For This Useful Post:

     eraserhead (04-23-2021),  JMcB (04-23-2021),  JoeyP37 (04-23-2021),  VladimirTaraskin (04-23-2021)

  14. #249
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,792
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    Please let me know if I am interpreting your statement incorrectly, but are you saying that if the rumored la Tene L1029 comes back Scandinavian like, that it would indicate L1029 was not a major contributor to the Kiev culture/early Slavs?
    This would still be consistent with both Przeworsk and L1029 hypothetically contributing to Kiev (or to some of the Kiev's ancestors, whoever they were according to the discussed scenario) but it would make it extremely unlikely for the Przeworsk folk (and for the "Przeworsk-associated" early L1029 people) to have spoken Proto-Slavic or a language ancestral to it (ie. pre-Proto-Slavic). As for L1029 constituting the "minority component" among the Proto-Slavs, this is likely to be true regardless of whether L1029 was initially associated with the pre-Proto-Slavs or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    If it is most similar to modern Scandinavians autosomally, but still has a good amount of balto-Slavic admixture (so like the opposite of LIB11?) then would that change the analysis?
    Well, this would strongly favour an alternative scenario in which this particular La Tene individual (or one of his recent ancestors from the father's side) came to IA Bohemia from the Proto-Slavic homeland located somewhere in the East.

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Ariel90 (04-23-2021),  Brent.B (04-23-2021)

  16. #250
    Registered Users
    Posts
    216

    Michał, why couldn't he be local? After all, we already have a lot of pre-medieval samples from the nearby area with the Balto-Slavic drift.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ambron For This Useful Post:

     Brent.B (04-24-2021),  JoeyP37 (04-23-2021)

Page 25 of 154 FirstFirst ... 1523242526273575125 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Medieval Pashtun Samples
    By J Man in forum Central
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-28-2020, 05:37 AM
  2. G25 Distance Maps to selected Early Medieval Samples
    By ph2ter in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 05-09-2020, 02:33 PM
  3. Early Medieval Czech DNA (years 600-900 AD)
    By Tomenable in forum Central
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 04-19-2018, 01:07 PM
  4. Early Medieval Germanic barrow burials
    By JonikW in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-31-2018, 12:34 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-27-2016, 06:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •