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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vokil View Post
    If these Baltic speaking Lithuanians, according by scientists and the official classification of this language are the " original Slavs", which are the Baltic ones?
    Do you realize the language group in question consist two different branches, one Baltic and another very different with of course a distinct name- Slavic? Do you have any clue and explanation of this discrepancy with the linguistics and history compared to the data of genetics?
    Lithuanians themselves have unlike other Balts significant Slavic-like ancestry and all modern-day Slavs have adstrate or substrate admix with North Ukrainians, SW Russians and Belarusians being closest to these early Slavic samples from Czechia, Poland, Germany, and Hungary. It is unlikely for Lithuanian-like people in Central Europe to be not early Slavs, because beside Slavic migrations we dont really have any other migration from the South Baltic region, which could be linked to a Baltic-like genetic profile. This does not mean that every Proto-Slav was Lithuanian-like, but other Proto-Slavs unlikely would be very different and rather on a cline between Lithuanians and modern-day North Slavs. West Slavic and South Slavic-like samples definitely show significant local admix and pretty much look like a mixture between locals and these Lithuanians/Belarusian-like samples.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I don't see anything strange in the diversity of these Medieval Slavs. You probably remember the Hungarian Szolad samples where you literally have individuals ranging from Scandinavian like to South Italian like. It's obvious there was mixing with Balkan and Roman population as the Slavs came closer to Roman border.
    However it's obvious that most of the samples when you plot em on Vahaduo's G25 PCA end up in the North Slavic cluster so we can assume that the proto-Slavs were north-Slavic like.
    Pity we don't know the exact dating of these early Slavs.
    Most probably the earliest proto-Slavic sample we have until now is the Chernyakhiv MJ19 Legedzine sample. It was dated to mid 4th century AD and was found in Legedzine, close to Kyev. Probably a proto-Slavic woman from the Kyev Culture married for a man from the Chernyakhov Culture.
    You base your conclusion solely on the fact that the north "slavs" are more in number here?
    That is come to say the peculiarities of the extract such as the representativeness of the samples for the specifics of the question and their selection( objective or rather subjective according to the desired set of conclusions that want to be obtained), the place from which they are taken, historical and linguistic data are not taken into account of course, and only the number has a meaning.
    If science all the time worked that way we would still be in the cave.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vokil View Post
    You base your conclusion solely on the fact that the north "slavs" are more in number here?
    That is come to say the peculiarities of the extract such as the representativeness of the samples for the specifics of the question and their selection( objective or rather subjective according to the desired set of conclusions that want to be obtained), the place from which they are taken, historical and linguistic data are not taken into account of course, and only the number has a meaning.
    If science all the time worked that way we would still be in the cave.
    Do we have a transect of variation of Ylines and autosomal profiles of the slavic speaking regions from the Dneper to the Danube and from Belarus to the Oder?

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    What it would be Chernyakhov Culture's autosomal?
    Probably a three way mix of Germanic-Slavic-Dacian/Getae samples. The two Chernyakhov samples in G25 so far are pretty much Slavic like.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  9. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Lithuanians themselves have unlike other Balts significant Slavic-like ancestry and all modern-day Slavs have adstrate or substrate admix with North Ukrainians, SW Russians and Belarusians being closest to these early Slavic samples from Czechia, Poland, Germany, and Hungary. It is unlikely for Lithuanian-like people in Central Europe to be not early Slavs, because beside Slavic migrations we dont really have any other migration from the South Baltic region, which could be linked to a Baltic-like genetic profile. This does not mean that every Proto-Slav was Lithuanian-like, but other Proto-Slavs unlikely would be very different and rather on a cline between Lithuanians and modern-day North Slavs. West Slavic and South Slavic-like samples definitely show significant local admix and pretty much look like a mixture between locals and these Lithuanians/Belarusian-like samples.
    Historically speaking, the time range of samples in question does not indicate at that same period any change of language/s among the southern Slavs, under the " cultural influence" ( do we have such history data that no one is still aware of at 21century) from the Baltics( northern Slavs?), so I do not se here any logic in your strange word outpouring. This you wrote does not rest on any solid logic and available facts from all other scientific fields for which the problem is of interest.
    On the contrary, the data from registered toponymy and history, linguistics say otherwise and it is in favor of the south Slavic profile of the first Slavs.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Probably a three way mix of Germanic-Slavic-Dacian/Getae samples. The two Chernyakhov samples in G25 so far are pretty much Slavic like.
    The Germanic prolly of eastern Germanic roots/origins? I am asking because some people saying that eastern Germanics are connected/associated with jastorf culture. It Is likely eastern Germanics to migrate to Urkaine and mixed with Daco-Getae and Slavs?

  12. #27
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Probably a three way mix of Germanic-Slavic-Dacian/Getae samples. The two Chernyakhov samples in G25 so far are pretty much Slavic like.
    They are less Slavic-like than some of the earlier Scythian samples from Ukraine and also more distant than some of the Baltic_IA samples. It does not seem that they contributed much to Slavs because they had significant Asian/Hun ancestry. Also they are rich in Balkan and Germanic admix, which does not seem to be significant among the earliest waves of Slavic settlers (so far Lithuanian/Belarusian-like)

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vokil View Post
    You base your conclusion solely on the fact that the north "slavs" are more in number here?
    That is come to say the peculiarities of the extract such as the representativeness of the samples for the specifics of the question and their selection( objective or rather subjective according to the desired set of conclusions that want to be obtained), the place from which they are taken, historical and linguistic data are not taken into account of course, and only the number has a meaning.
    If science all the time worked that way we would still be in the cave.
    First of all, if you want to take into account all those specifics like language, archaeology, historical accounts etc. you would agree that the starting point and first identifiable proto-Slavic Culture is the Kyev Culture. But you don't even have to agree because many archaeologists already agree on that. Linguistics wise, the Slavic languages also arrived from that area considering they are closely related to the Baltic languages. The historical accounts are even more obvious.
    Probably you skipped my observation on MJ19 sample which is probably the only proto-Slavic sample we have so far and whose origins are most likely in the Kyev Culture.
    As this sample clusters closely to Northern Slavs but not only, we have other early Slavic samples from Czechia and Hungary, I based my conclusion on the most logical explanation for me. I don't believe that the proto-Slavs ranged from Lithuanian like to Balkan like before the migration period. Their Balkan input is only after the migrations started.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    They are less Slavic-like than some of the earlier Scythian samples from Ukraine and also more distant than some of the Baltic_IA samples. It does not seem that they contributed much to Slavs because they had significant Asian/Hun ancestry. Also they are rich in Balkan and Germanic admix, which does not seem to be significant among the earliest waves of Slavic settlers (so far Lithuanian/Belarusian-like)
    MJ19 didn't have to contribute anything to Slavs because it was a Slav. The sample is equally Slavic if not more than some of those Scythians. Also I don't recall it had anything Hunnic/Asian in his autosomal makeup.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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