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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    So native people under pressure from East germanic= Suebi. When it were Suebi the sentence makes no sense, because then it would have stated: the native Suebi were under pressure from the Suebi...
    No, it seems you misunderstood what they wrote. They meant the native population (mostly the Suebi) under the pressure from the East Germanic newcomers (mostly the Goths and the Gepids).

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Ergo: the graves were from people before the influx of the Suebi!
    The graves from the 5th cen. AD could not have been dated to any period before the influx of the Suebi (ie. before 4-3 cent. BC).
    Last edited by Michał; 05-03-2021 at 08:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Read the sentence again:


    So native people under pressure from East germanic= Suebi. When it were Suebi the sentence makes no sense, because then it would have stated: the native Suebi were under pressure from the Suebi... Ergo: the graves were from people before the influx of the Suebi!

    And the grave is not a typical Suebi warrior grave too poor for that, and no Suebi signs they were very signified (knot and certain 'decorations'). The German paper doesn't mention such a thing and if there was something in the grave that would point at the Suebi the archeologist would have mentioned that....no doubt.
    Suebi were not East Germanic tribe. (East Germanics were Gothic people, Bastarni, Gepides..)
    And why do you think that every Suebian grave must be richly furnished.
     
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  5. #383
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    From the German paper written by Jifi MACHACEK I Evzenie KLANICOVA, grave 8 if I'm well from Lib2:


    The most important find is probably the bronze buckle (Fig. 2/2) from grave 8. An analogy to the kidney-shaped bow z. B. in the early Merovingian burial fields in Germany. In this locality there is also a variant of the kidney-shaped diagonally grooved bow (Code 30 - Wieczorek 1987). A. Wieczorek dates these specimens to the 2nd and 3rd third of the 5th century and looks for their origin in the southern Russian and Danubian models (Wieczorek 1987, 410-426). About the shaping also in the wider area of ​​Central and Eastern Europe testify z. B. Bronze specimens from Klosterneuburg (Neugebauer-Maresch / Neugebauer 1986, plate 3) and Gencsapati (Tejral 1988, from 19/3) or the silver buckle from Dinde ~ ti in Romania (Nemeti 1967, fig. 2.6). We also know the specimens made of iron, e.g. B. from Schletz (Windel 1988, 203, Fig. 2.567), Sarovce (Novotny
    1976, 118, plate XXI / 4) or Lauriacum / Lorch (Kloiber 1957, plate XLIII / 4a), which were sometimes exchanged with copper (e.g. Drösing-Jedlicka 1995, 615, fig. 946).
    No Suebi warrior.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Suebi were not East Germanic tribe. (East Germanics were Gothic people, Bastarni, Gepides..)
    And why do you think that every Suebian grave must be richly furnished.
    If we prefer to leave Bastarni away, it is heavily disputed whether it was East-Germanic in the narrower sense, we'd better add Vandals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    No Suebi warrior.....
    How do you know it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Suebi were not East Germanic tribe. (East Germanics were Gothic people, Bastarni, Gepides..)
    And why do you think that every Suebian grave must be richly furnished.
    Suebi were originally Elb-Germanic....and the equipment of Lib2/grave 8 is more Central-East than Suebi (^^^).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    How do you know it?
    At it's best it's a Suebi warrior in pre or proto Slavic disguise!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Suebi were originally Elb-Germanic....and the equipment of Lib2/grave 8 is more Central-East than Suebi (^^^).
    Are you seriously suggesting that the Suebic people from the Great Migrations Period (including both those who have migrated towards France and Iberia and those who stayed in Czechia/Moravia/Slovakia/Pannonia before intermingling with the newly arriving Germanic people coming both from east and north) were equipped exactly the same way as their distant ancestors who lived 7-8 centuries earlier (when they were leaving their Middle Elbe Urheimat), so there was no cultural influence neither from their Roman neighbors nor from the incoming Eastern Germanic tribes (previously residing in Ukraine)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    At it's best it's a Suebi warrior in pre or proto Slavic disguise!
    What makes you think the equipment was Slavic? Doesn't the archaeological report say the equipment shows clear similarity to what was produced/used in the Danubian and North Pontic regions? Are you not aware that these were the regions where different Germanic tribes lived at that time (and there are no records showing such an early presence of any Slavic people in those territories)?

    So the sample looks genetically Germanic (inlcuding both the autosomes and Y-DNA), it was found on the territorry associated with the presence of the Germanic tribes (since at least 7-8 centuries), the eqiupment resembles that found in territories occupied by different Germanic people and does not point to any obvious non-Germanic culture, and you are still claiming it is unlikely that this sample is ethnically/linguistically Germanic (pointing to Proto-Slavic instead). There is absolutely no logic in what you suggest.
    Last edited by Michał; 05-03-2021 at 09:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Read the sentence again:


    So native people under pressure from East germanic= Suebi. When it were Suebi the sentence makes no sense, because then it would have stated: the native Suebi were under pressure from the Suebi... Ergo: the graves were from people before the influx of the Suebi!
    I don't see the problem here, as you said yourself Suebi were Elb Germanics. And therefore West Germanic, not East Germanic.
    Also, Suebic peoples had lived in the area for 400 years before that so I do not see why they would not be described as native.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    And the grave is not a typical Suebi warrior grave too poor for that, and no Suebi signs they were very signified (knot and certain 'decorations'). The German paper doesn't mention such a thing and if there was something in the grave that would point at the Suebi the archeologist would have mentioned that....no doubt.
    How would human remains after 1500 years show a Suebian knot if it is not a bog mummy?

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