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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    If we prefer to leave Bastarni away, it is heavily disputed whether it was East-Germanic in the narrower sense, we'd better add Vandals.
    And lugii

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    What makes you think the equipment was Slavic? Doesn't the archaeological report say the equipment shows clear similarity to what was produced/used in the Danubian and North Pontic regions? Are you not aware that these were the regions where different Germanic tribes lived at that time (and there are no records showing such an early presence of any Slavic people in those territories)?

    So the sample looks genetically Germanic (inlcuding both the autosomes and Y-DNA), it was found on the territorry associated with the presence of the Germanic tribes (since at least 7-8 centuries), the eqiupment resembles that found in territories occupied by different Germanic people and does not point to any obvious non-Germanic culture, and you are still claiming it is unlikely that this sample is ethnically/linguistically Germanic (pointing to Proto-Slavic instead). There is absolutely no logic in what you suggest.
    I said pre or proto Slavic, or Central-East, anything except typical 'Germanic'.

    How would you explain this?
    bronze buckle.... A. Wieczorek dates these specimens to the 2nd and 3rd third of the 5th century and looks for their origin in the southern Russian and Danubian models (Wieczorek 1987, 410-426). About the shaping also in the wider area of ​​Central and Eastern Europe testify
    What could be my bad is that for me (in the outmost NW Elb Germanics/Suebi are already 'east Germanic', so the influx could be from farther east so from the (heirs of) the Wielbark culture, Goths? The place on the G25 plot points at that direction.....Nevertheless not a typical Germanic warrior grave isn't it?

    PS I guess this could be a possibility!!!!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture
    Last edited by Finn; 05-04-2021 at 07:11 AM.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    And lugii
    In my opinion, the Lugians can be associated with the Przeworsk culture like the Vandals, but the name Lugii is uncertain. It could be related to the Celtic root Leug- ('swamp'), which Lugier definitely had Celtic influences in the early Roman times.

    In any case we can divide the Germanic peoples into archaeological groups 1. Wielbark culture (Goths, Gepids), 2. Przeworsk Culture (Vandals, Lugier / Harri ?, Halisiones ?, Naharnavali? ..) 3. Oder estuary group, 4. Elbe-Germanic (Marcomanni, Suebi , Quaden ..) 5. Rhine-Weser-Germanic (Chatti, ...) 6. North Sea coast-Germanic - (Frisii, Chauci ..) and 7. North Germanic (Anglii, Aviones ..)
    Alain Dad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    In my opinion, the Lugians can be associated with the Przeworsk culture like the Vandals, but the name Lugii is uncertain. It could be related to the Celtic root Leug- ('swamp'), which Lugier definitely had Celtic influences in the early Roman times.

    In any case we can divide the Germanic peoples into archaeological groups 1. Wielbark culture (Goths, Gepids), 2. Przeworsk Culture (Vandals, Lugier / Harri ?, Halisiones ?, Naharnavali? ..) 3. Oder estuary group, 4. Elbe-Germanic (Marcomanni, Suebi , Quaden ..) 5. Rhine-Weser-Germanic (Chatti, ...) 6. North Sea coast-Germanic - (Frisii, Chauci ..) and 7. North Germanic (Anglii, Aviones ..)
    And?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture


    or:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague-Korchak_culture

    seen time and place the prague-korchak culture looks not weird!!

    https://books.google.nl/books?id=pLJ...page&q&f=false

    You name it!
    Last edited by Finn; 05-04-2021 at 07:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    One should see it as a Gothic hike Wielbark culture - Chernyakhov culture - Sāntana -de -Mureș - culture, the Chernyakhov culture occurs from the middle of the 3rd century AD in today's Ukraine and extends in the east over the Dnieper, in the south to to the Black Sea coast and in the west to the watershed of the Dniester and the southern Bug, but also finds of the Chernyakhov culture can be found in the Crimea, the Goths of the Chernyakhov culture were the first to use turntable goods on a large scale and to begin with the nomadic Sarmatians deal with.

    Before that, the Goths came with the Vandals in military conflicts on the Lublin plateau and in Volhynia. The Goths would have to secure their migration to the south (Bessarabia, Wallachia) by undertaking raids with their fleets in the Black Sea area and plundering in the direction of the Peloponnese, so they were mostly involved in conflicts
    Last edited by Alain; 05-04-2021 at 07:39 AM.
    Alain Dad
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    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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    ph2ter, thanks for Krakauer Berg!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    One should see it as a Gothic hike Wielbark culture - Chernyakhov culture - Sāntana -de -Mureș - culture, the Chernyakhov culture occurs from the middle of the 3rd century AD in today's Ukraine and extends in the east over the Dnieper, in the south to to the Black Sea coast and in the west to the watershed of the Dniester and the southern Bug, but also finds of the Chernyakhov culture can be found in the Crimea, the Goths of the Chernyakhov culture were the first to use turntable goods on a large scale and to begin with the nomadic Sarmatians deal with.

    Before that, the Goths came with the Vandals in military conflicts on the Lublin plateau and in Volhynia. The Goths would have to secure their migration to the south (Bessarabia, Wallachia) by undertaking raids with their fleets in the Black Sea area and plundering in the direction of the Peloponnese, so they were mostly involved in conflicts
    Yes, but obviously this was no Germanic warrior (no signs of it). What could well be the case that a person with most probably roots in the Wielbark/Gothic context went to Moravia....or both parents had migrated to it. Whatsoever. May be that simple

  10. #398
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    "The Suebi (or Suebians, also spelled Suevi, Suavi)..."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

    In Classical Latin, from which these notations are derived, the "u" before a vowel is the Slavic "ł".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I said pre or proto Slavic, or Central-East, anything except typical 'Germanic'.
    Genetically, he doesn't show any affinity neither to the Proto-Slavs nor to the Pre-Proto-Slavs (or generally to the Balto-Slavs), and there is also nothing in the archaeological context of that grave that would point to any Slavic-related ancestry, so your claim has no support at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    How would you explain this?
    I fully agree with the above-quoted archaeological report that describes this finding as representing the local Suebian population strongly influenced by the East Germanic people coming from the East, including the Chernyakhov Goths moving west under the strong Hunnic pressure. We have historical sources saying that some Gothic groupings started arriving to Pannonia as early as in the late 4th cent. AD, and by the second half of the 5th century the Ostrogoths were the dominant Germanic group in that region. It seems that the local Suebi people under the leadership of Hunimund (allied with the Scirri and some other Germanic and non-Germanic groupings) have tried to stop the Gothic invasion but after losing the battle of Bolia (469 AD), they definitely lost the control over the former Suebian/Quadi territories in Slovakia/Moravia/Pannonia.

    The Slavs (and the Korchak-Prague culture) are first seen in this region after about 100 years (in the second half of the 6th century).
    Last edited by Michał; 05-04-2021 at 08:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Genetically, he doesn't show any affinity neither to the Proto-Slavs nor to the Pre-Proto-Slavs (or generally to the Balto-Slavs), and there is also nothing in the archaeological context of that grave that would point to any Slavic-related ancestry, so your claim has no support at all.


    I fully agree with the above-quoted archaeological report that describes this finding as representing the local Suebian population strongly influenced by the East Germanic people coming from the East, including the Chernyakhov Goths moving west under the strong Hunnic pressure. We have historical sources saying that some Gothic groupings started arriving to Pannonia as early as in the late 4th cent. AD, and by the second half of the 5th century the Ostrogoths were the dominant Germanic group in that region. It seems that the local Suebi people under the leadership of Hunimund (allied with the Scirri and some other Germanic and non-Germanic groupings) have tried to stop the Gothic invasion but after losing the battle of Bolia (469 AD), they definitely lost the control over the former Suebian/Quadi territories in Slovakia/Moravia/Pannonia.

    Ok clear!
    And.
    It was just before the coining and use of the name "Slavs" I guess that along the 'West-Slavs' there was a contingent of Suebi (and Goths) and such like Germanics that went into the West Slavic mix....
    Last edited by Finn; 05-04-2021 at 08:54 AM.

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