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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Your models are bad quite frankly. The fit is very bad as well but most of all, nMonte is being funny here therefore I wouldn't rely much on these models.
    Basically MJ19 is identical with the 'Avar' samples from Szolad and is more eastern than the early Slav sample from Czechia.
    There is nothing Medieval Germanic in this sample. It's obvious when trying to model MJ19 with HUN_Avar_Szolad with SVK_Poprad_MA, it get's 100% HUN_Avar_Szolad, not to mention that distance wise it's closest to the Slavic samples.
    nMonte is being funny here because we still missing many ancient samples related and relevant to the Slavs's ethnogenesis.
    It is not identical to them and please look at the distances. Avar_Szolad_1 has a local father but it is still distant from it and even more from Avar_Szolad_2. MJ19 is closest to ancient and modern Central Europeans with Germanic and Slavic admix so unlikely an early Slav based on the dating and admixture of this sample. The sample is closest to modern-day Czechs/Slovaks, who unlikely are pure representative of early Slavs around 500 A.D especially considering Czechia had Lithuanian/Belarusian-like Slavs in the Medieval period.

    Distance to: UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.04068327 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5531
    0.04089870 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA:VK156
    0.04238036 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160
    0.04279028 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
    0.04282318 Corded_Ware_CHE:MX189
    0.04293457 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK354
    0.04301184 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
    0.04405026 VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA:VK273
    0.04427197 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK397
    0.04487283 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK344
    0.04519050 CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569
    0.04559684 VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA:VK98
    0.04567095 VK2020_England_Dorset_VA:VK263
    0.04580904 MigrationOH41
    0.04624321 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK358
    0.04632703 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
    0.04671216 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK352
    0.04684328 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
    0.04689842 Scythian_UKR:MJ13
    0.04708438 VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA:VK19
    0.04742206 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA:VK541
    0.04765870 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK443
    0.04770139 CZE_EBA:I4892
    0.04775706 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1
    0.04835088 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK533
    0.04842503 VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK508
    0.04843986 VK2020_NOR_South_VA:VK394
    0.04867984 VK2020_NOR_North_VA:VK514
    0.04894223 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK334
    0.04895380 VK2020_NOR_North_VA:VK388
    0.04899601 VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA:VK409
    0.04905697 POL_EBA:N17
    0.04919794 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK64
    0.04924567 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK274
    0.04945714 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
    0.04949500 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA:I0099
    0.04962730 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1053
    0.04975250 Corded_Ware_CHE:MX198
    0.04987575 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026
    0.04991111 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750
    0.04999277 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA:VK340
    0.05000604 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
    0.05010169 Scythian_MDA_o:scy303
    0.05025641 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK473
    0.05028152 Bell_Beaker_FRA:I1382
    0.05043526 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5519
    0.05046207 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA:VK154
    0.05060882 VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK485
    0.05071411 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK371
    0.05084964 VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK496

    Distance to: UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.04057543 Slovakian
    0.04161813 Moldovan_o
    0.04296947 Czech
    0.04473065 Polish
    0.04522392 Ukrainian
    0.04636361 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    0.04814377 Russian_Orel
    0.04842915 Russian_Kursk

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  3. #42
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    In my opinion, Mr. Coldmountains knows a lot about calculators and has been around for a long time, but if you feel unsure, ask someone else
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  5. #43
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    Examples:

    Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

    Kit SW3724449

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 29.2
    2 North_Sea 22.45
    3 Eastern_Euro 21.16
    4 Atlantic 19.41
    5 West_Med 2.92
    6 South_Asian 2.76
    7 Northeast_African 1.09
    8 West_Asian 0.87
    9 Amerindian 0.09
    10 Oceanian 0.04
    11 East_Med 0.01

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Polish 4.38
    2 Belorussian 5.09
    3 Estonian_Polish 5.26
    4 Estonian 5.61
    5 Russian_Smolensk 5.89
    6 Southwest_Russian 6.89
    7 South_Polish 7.01
    8 Lithuanian 7.69
    9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 7.9
    10 Ukrainian 8.01

    Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

    Kit UK1317165

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 32.45
    2 Eastern_Euro 22.57
    3 North_Sea 22.3
    4 Atlantic 17.13
    5 West_Med 2.12
    6 South_Asian 1.78
    7 West_Asian 1.3
    8 Red_Sea 0.36

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Belorussian 3.79
    2 Estonian_Polish 4.44
    3 Lithuanian 4.45
    4 Estonian 5.25
    5 Southwest_Russian 6.07
    6 Polish 6.09
    7 Russian_Smolensk 6.14
    8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 7.12
    9 South_Polish 8.44
    10 Ukrainian 8.75

    ^^^
    These do not look like pure Balts.

    Such individuals might skew Lithuanian regional averages in G25 in case if Davidski did not exclude them and/od did not mark them as outliers (I admit it is not obvious, but up to debate, whether they should be considered outliers with recent Slavic ancestry, or just part od normal Lithuanian variation).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-16-2021 at 02:36 PM.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Well I put it Wrong. I wanted to mean the Proto-East Germanic people If they had any eastern(maybe balto-slavic drift or something). I agree thought that later they mixed badly with Balkan folks and Huns.
    Originally, early Germanic were of course Northern European, but it's best to ask someone else with the calculation, as I don't have a laptop yet and do everything via smartphone
    Last edited by Alain; 04-17-2021 at 03:53 AM.
    Alain Dad
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    YourDNAPortal Calculator ancient K36

    Kivutkalns_153_Latvia_BA 22
    DA112_Hallstatt-Bylany_800BC 19
    DA191_Hungary_Scythian 12
    IA_Wielbark_Mas_5_PL 11
    BA_Hungary_RISE254 7
    IA_Wielbark_Kow_25_PL 7
    LBA_Lithuania_RISE598 7
    IA_Britain_York_6DRIF22 6
    IA_EastKazachstan_Is2 6
    CHL_Iran_I1670 2

  8. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    First of all, if you want to take into account all those specifics like language, archaeology, historical accounts etc. you would agree that the starting point and first identifiable proto-Slavic Culture is the Kyev Culture. But you don't even have to agree because many archaeologists already agree on that. Linguistics wise, the Slavic languages also arrived from that area considering they are closely related to the Baltic languages. The historical accounts are even more obvious.
    Probably you skipped my observation on MJ19 sample which is probably the only proto-Slavic sample we have so far and whose origins are most likely in the Kyev Culture.
    As this sample clusters closely to Northern Slavs but not only, we have other early Slavic samples from Czechia and Hungary, I based my conclusion on the most logical explanation for me. I don't believe that the proto-Slavs ranged from Lithuanian like to Balkan like before the migration period. Their Balkan input is only after the migrations started.
    You probably understand that when it comes to language, then the evidences from linguistics comes first (especially in the observed very mixed profile of the Slavs today), and not based over some unknown on what principle collected samples. These mixed samples are used selectively to incline in the desired direction.
    Where do you read this about " most likely Kyev culture"? Most likely or for sure?
    Where is the data for cultural influence over half of Europe from these and of course the need to observe any change of language after that.
    Again and most important question, I ask where is the evidence of language change among the southern Slavs?
    The opposite is observed, based on certain toponyms from old historical sources.
    Samples:
    "Α͂ελᾶ: τὴν Βελᾶν ON im Epirus, s. Epirotica Fgm. 2 ed. Bonn. S. 229, 2. Der Ortsname hängt wohl zusammen mit Βελλᾶς, Μονὴ Γνενεθλίων Θεοτόκου im Kr. Joannina (Lex., A.), und ist amesten mit slav. * White: white "white" to declare. The interpretation is correct, but it is not possible to speak of a new name, because as early as the 5th century BC Herodotus wrote about the Belasitsa mountain, called in his time Ὄρβηλος - Her.V.16. According to Acad. Georgiev, the element belos / βηλος, βηλον corresponds exactly to the Bulgarian adjective white (Georgiev, 1977, p.33).

    In interpreting the toponym Bergos located on the territory of Greece, Max Vasmer uses the Bulgarian word breg-bryag: “γέργος ein Berg bei Kerasovo, Kr. Konitsa, s. HX IX 221. Aus slav. * bergъ, skr. faster, bulg. Coast. ”. Again a correct interpretation, but the name simply cannot be new, because in Thracian onomastics we find Bergule / Bεργούλη, Berge-polis / Bεργε-πολις, and the element is identified with stblg. брѣгъ-бряг (Georgiev, 1977, p. 68). The mentioned Bεργε-πολις is from Claudius Ptolemy, works at the II century.


    Kaminitsa is an even older, very interesting toponym.M Vasmer gives a correct interpretation with a stone: “Καμινίτσα eine Gegend bei Exochi, Kr. Konitsa, s. ХX XII 209. Auch als »steinige Gegend« von slav. Kamenica. ”but the Linguist fails to mention the related, but much more ancient, mentioned by Homer and others hydronym Scamander, also known as Kamander / Κάμανδρος.

    Citing Acad. Georgiev Leonid Gindin presents the argumentation of the scientist who considers the hydronym to be Phrygian, Thracian, or even Illyrian, deriving it from ie. * kāmŏn-drowo-s “Stein fluß”. The first part is derived from praslav. * kamy, -ene, mentioning the large number of hydronyms with this component. Gindin adds another argument of Georgiev, namely that in its lower course the Scamander passes through an area called Kavalidağ ("Stein, Felsberg") (Gindin, 1981, p.131-132 ). It is unnecessary to specify when Homer lived and how long the name of the Kamander River existed before him, which could be explained in Bulgarian.

    Cultural influence, including religious influence, goes from south to north and is very clearly reflected in history sources.

  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    West Slavic and South Slavic-like samples definitely show significant local admix and pretty much look like a mixture between locals and these Lithuanians/Belarusian-like samples.
    What about Ukrainians? They must also have some significant non-Slavic admix if Proto-Slavs were Belarusian-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reignman View Post
    Maybe diversity of the samples is expected considering an explanation in the book http://mail.rastko.rs/cms/files/books/5c47d0ce439e8.pdf on page 300:


    Is there any info about dating of the samples or it could be anywhere between 6th and 10th century?
    I think that explanation is about Rozotky being multi-ethnic, not Pohansko?

  13. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What about Ukrainians? They must also have some significant non-Slavic admix if Proto-Slavs were Belarusian-like.
    Ukrainians are also quite close but have today several different genetic profiles from almost Lithuanian-like to Hungarian-like with the majority falling rather in-between being closest to Poles, SW Russians/South Belarusians and Slovaks (Many also show Germanic/Balkan admix). Belarusians on the other side seem to be more homogenous and on average are very Hun_Avar_Szolad_2 and Krakauer_Berg-like.

    It is also surprising how close many West Russians are to these early Slavic samples despite living in former Finno-Ugrian territory. The ones with low Finno-Ugrian admix are almost as much as close to early Slavs as Belarusians. But some West Russians even close to Ukraine and Belarus show significant Volga-Ural-like admix (lot of internal migration in Russia in the last centuries)

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    ^^^ But don't at least Northern Belarusians have some, relatively recent (Medieval or later), Balt admixture, not just Lithuanian but also Yotvingian in case of NW Belarus?

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