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Thread: New Samples from Migration Era and Early Medieval Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    I've added Chernyakhov culture female (262-530 AD).



    She appears to be almost half way between Germanic and Slavic samples, likely a mix. Very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    She appears to be almost half way between Germanic and Slavic samples, likely a mix. Very interesting.
    I know I might sound repetitive, but we also need to look out for people lying "naturally" between Germanics and Slavs, even before the expansions of the two major groups. Like where are Lusatians, Dacians, Sarmatians and Scythians plotting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I know I might sound repetitive, but we also need to look out for people lying "naturally" between Germanics and Slavs, even before the expansions of the two major groups. Like where are Lusatians, Dacians, Sarmatians and Scythians plotting?
    I will concede this is possible but here it seems as if Occam's Razor is in full effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    I will concede this is possible but here it seems as if Occam's Razor is in full effect.
    True. Just want it to be kept in mind especially if more samples coming in. Not every individual plotting in the middle might be the result of recent admixture and even those which are the result of recent admixture could be more complicated mixtures including various, partly unknown ancestries. Ultimately this also relates to the question how far Slavic-like ancestry or actual Proto-Slavs were widespread at that point in time. Just to give an example, there are Bell Beakers which plot close to Celts or Germanics, which, actually, might have been of a different ethnicity at the time they were living.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    True. Just want it to be kept in mind especially if more samples coming in. Not every individual plotting in the middle might be the result of recent admixture and even those which are the result of recent admixture could be more complicated mixtures including various, partly unknown ancestries. Ultimately this also relates to the question how far Slavic-like ancestry or actual Proto-Slavs were widespread at that point in time. Just to give an example, there are Bell Beakers which plot close to Celts or Germanics, which, actually, might have been of a different ethnicity at the time they were living.
    I agree. But in this case you have woman that was part of a multi ethnic culture where we know Goths were present and Slavs were likely present, versus an unknown entity.

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  11. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    She appears to be almost half way between Germanic and Slavic samples, likely a mix. Very interesting.
    She's like a 25% Kowalewko Gothic and 75% Slavic mix :P

    Distance to: UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine_Female:MJ19
    0.04580904 Slavic_I-Y3120:POH41
    0.04632703 Slavic_I-Y3120:KRA008
    0.04742206 Slavic_R-L1029:VK541
    0.05124173 Slavic_R-L1029:KRA001
    0.05246810 Slavic_R-L1029:KRA003
    0.05360986 Slavic_I-Y3120:POH36
    0.05427388 Slavic_I-Y3120:VK542
    0.05645547 Slavic_I-Y3120:Sunghir6
    0.05652194 Slavic_I-Y3120:POH44
    0.05843625 Slavic_R-L1029:VK309
    0.05935137 Slavic_R-L1029:VK139
    0.06699709 Slavic_R-L260:VK494
    0.06729986 Kowalewko_Goths_Male:8
    0.06889823 Slavic_R-L260:VK453
    0.07122387 Kowalewko_Goths_Male:9
    0.07188633 Kowalewko_Goths_Male:7
    0.07393546 Kowalewko_Goths_Male:12
    0.08018306 Kowalewko_Goths_Male:2

    Target: UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine_Female:MJ19
    Distance: 3.6555% / 0.03655510
    44.2 Slavic_I-Y3120
    29.0 Slavic_R-L1029
    26.8 Kowalewko_Goths_Male

    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-11-2021 at 01:13 PM.

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  13. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Germanic and Slavic samples, likely a mix.
    Some time ago, when I was corresponding with a member of team analysing Wielbark culture samples, he/she () replied (Google translate): "capturing the genetic drift that the studied fossil sample shares to a greater extent with the contemporary populations that would interest us most: I would expect for the Chernyakhov culture that it would be contemporary Germanic and Slavic."

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  15. #558
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    Google translate: "Another important change was after the Scythians in the territory of Ukraine during the development of the so-called Chernyakhov culture more than 1,700 years ago. Studies of ancient DNA show that the Chernyakhov culture probably originated as a result of migration from the North [North West]. "All the individuals studied in the Chernyakhov culture are genetically significantly" western "than all the individuals in the earlier Ukrainian cultures, overlapping with the genetic variability of modern and Bronze and Iron Age Europeans," Kriiska specified."

    https://novaator.err.ee/970726/tartu...skuutide-jalgi

    Please see my post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770768
    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-11-2021 at 02:49 PM.

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    Waldemar, from this quote it appears that the population of Legedzine came as such from the west, and was not formed on the spot as a result of mixing with the locals. This population came from northern Poland and genetically looks like the northern Poles of today.

    You can also clearly see on your PCA that Western Slavs cannot be the result of mixing genetic Belarusians with Restgermans, because the vast majority (except Kashubians) look completely different than Legedzine. And if they were such a mix, they would have to look like Legedzine.

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  19. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Waldemar, from this quote it appears that the population of Legedzine came as such from the west, and was not formed on the spot as a result of mixing with the locals.
    That's correct.

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