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Thread: How much Germanic admixture does Iberians have?

  1. #11
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    Due to my unusual Ydna, I have long searched for an extra Germanic input in my father autosomal, to be able to know if the arrival of that haplotype was of recent or ancient origin, and I have not found with models, any guidelines that indicate that their autosomal results are different from most Spaniards.

    It´s easier to find some "Germanic" in my mother than in my father.

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  3. #12
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    The model proposed by Nino (Scaled):

    Code:
    Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
    DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
    MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 3.0106% / 0.03010610

    91.2 Iberia_North_IA
    5.8 DEU_MA
    3.0 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
    Distance: 4.1796% / 0.04179606

    94.8 Iberia_North_IA
    5.2 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
    Distance: 2.5355% / 0.02535514

    85.0 Iberia_North_IA
    12.8 DEU_MA
    2.2 MAR_Taforalt

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  5. #13
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    And adding "Natufian" to the model, "MAR_Taforalt " dissapears but...

    Code:
    Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
    DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
    MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 2.5729% / 0.02572949

    81.2 Iberia_North_IA
    10.8 DEU_MA
    8.0 Levant_Natufian

    Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
    Distance: 3.6437% / 0.03643742

    84.0 Iberia_North_IA
    12.0 Levant_Natufian
    4.0 DEU_MA

    Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
    Distance: 2.4791% / 0.02479117

    80.4 Iberia_North_IA
    15.2 DEU_MA
    4.4 Levant_Natufian

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  7. #14
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    Sweden Italy Italy 1861-1946 Sami Vatican Italy Tuscany
    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    Due to my unusual Ydna, I have long searched for an extra Germanic input in my father autosomal, to be able to know if the arrival of that haplotype was of recent or ancient origin, and I have not found with models, any guidelines that indicate that their autosomal results are different from most Spaniards.

    It´s easier to find some "Germanic" in my mother than in my father.
    And also it is hard to say if it is real Germanic or you just got higher Steppe than the average spaniard?

    Can you please run Davidski's ancient model:
    Code:
    TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,0.108701,0.1731478,-0.0143308,-0.100534,0.0270818,-0.0402298,-0.0045828,-0.005019,0.02623,0.05745,0.008444,0.0080555,-0.0101832,0.0052298,-0.0352192,-0.0104748,0.0088662,0.0004432,0.005342,-0.0032828,0.0026827,0.0044515,-0.0071795,-0.0038258,-0.0045805
    BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP,0.050765,-0.3095332,0.1206032,0.098515,-0.1156522,-0.017626,-0.284645,-0.3400012,-0.0136212,-0.0184422,0.002241,-0.003267,0.0004162,0.017478,-0.0065688,0.0064438,0.006493,-0.001267,0.0026898,0.003727,-0.0010482,0.007963,-0.002662,-0.0043378,0.001413
    Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0096995
    ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
    Gambian,-0.6064875,0.0671942,0.0197362,0.0114665,0.0021028,0.0055777,-0.0358392,0.0387677,-0.0317353,0.0241463,0.0054132,-0.0036467,0.0162287,-0.0009865,0.011016,-0.0153362,0.009692,-0.0011823,-0.002116,-0.0032307,-0.001643,-0.0018137,0.0043958,-0.0001005,0.001377
    Han,0.0206952,-0.4507105,-0.0082967,-0.0651579,0.0780846,0.0374475,0.0029055,-0.004804,-0.0150232,-0.0031146,-0.0495875,-0.0070573,0.0072707,-0.0081072,-0.0043305,0.0012535,0.0017542,-0.0008638,-0.0020455,-0.0102206,0.0122397,0.0069582,0.0141063,-0.0012925,-0.0022315
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
    IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728,0.033009,-0.081242,-0.184789,0.125325,-0.09848,0.06777,0.002585,0.007615,0.03661,0.02606,-0.002273,0.010041,-0.005798,0.006744,0.004479,0.001326,0.008605,0.001267,0.00352,0.001376,0.003743,-0.004946,-0.00037,-0.00253,-0.007305
    Jarawa,-0.0219821,-0.2430289,-0.1324164,0.0986968,0.0323713,-0.0045841,-0.01012,0.0065044,0.0546974,0.0238044,0.0228054,0.0027349,-0.0041532,0.0103562,-0.0108067,-0.0114441,0.0094529,-0.0019082,-0.0062221,0.0286778,-0.0046401,0.0111366,-0.0123402,0.0022668,0.0049844
    Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
    Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
    MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    Nganassan,0.0476917,-0.4066181,0.1557885,0.0023902,-0.1594452,-0.0882129,0.0285066,0.0433367,0.0310876,0.0128477,0.1028569,0.0094115,-0.0040734,-0.0261619,-0.0219731,-0.0123307,-0.0010952,0.0134165,0.0268365,-0.0008505,0.0431363,-0.0118954,0.0336096,0.0003977,0.0135556
    WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
    Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0.0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561,0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
    How much Basque ancestry do you have ?
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 3.1640% / 0.03163963 | R3P
    64.4 __Germanic
    26.4 __IllyricRoman
    9.2 __Finnic

  8. #15
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    Nino, I am not so sure that higher WHG means higher Germanic admixture.

    If I have to bet something I would say that Germanic admixture was higher in Northern Italy and some areas of central-southern Italy (Appenines between Abruzzo and Lazio, Molise, Benevento area), but maybe becauses of the admixture of previous populations, maybe because of later admixture between surrounding populations, the autosomal impact was probably "limited".

    I am not an expert of Iberian history. For the time being, IMO, the PCAs are the best way to look at it.
    Iberians, generally speaking, basically plot west of Northern Italy (on a west-east line you have Iberians - N. Italy - Mid Balkans).
    Germans and Austrians seems to be North of this Balkan cluster (so slightly eastern of N. Italians and Iberians, because of steppe I guess), while French are more well spread between Iberians, north of N. Italians or even closer to Germany and so east-shifted.

    That's just to say that it's really hard to say that's Germanic and that's not, especially looking at deep ancestry such as WHG.

    It's not rare to see N. Italians (and your father is north shifted to be at the border between Tuscany and Emilia) scoring Iberian samples. As you can see in my previous post the ancestral difference is not huge and is mostly more WHG on the Iberian side and more Steppe on the N. Italian side.

    Similarly, someone who plot Central Italian as me, has a great fit with Mainland Greece/Albania/Macedonia.

    Southern Italians, will probably often score Greek Islands.
    Last edited by Northern Adriatic; 04-20-2021 at 10:59 AM.
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

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  10. #16
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    Spain Basque Andalucia
    And last variation, with my beloved "Guanches":

    Code:
    Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
    DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
    Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
    Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 2.5593% / 0.02559271

    80.6 Iberia_North_IA
    10.8 DEU_MA
    6.6 Levant_Natufian
    2.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

    Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
    Distance: 3.4300% / 0.03430026

    81.4 Iberia_North_IA
    9.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    5.8 Levant_Natufian
    3.6 DEU_MA

    Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
    Distance: 2.4336% / 0.02433636

    79.8 Iberia_North_IA
    14.8 DEU_MA
    3.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    1.8 Levant_Natufian

    My father still has quite high distances,so maybe I would add a some different component from NE (Slavs?) that could have come with that R1a first individual? But distances could be also because we are using the North Iberia IA reference, and we need more Iberian IA samples from other zones.(East Iberia is another option but They are very late Iron Age individuals and are already somewhat mixed).

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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    And also it is hard to say if it is real Germanic or you just got higher Steppe than the average spaniard?



    How much Basque ancestry do you have ?
    My mother is Basque and all her ancestor (As far as I can know) are from the Southernmost Basque province(Álava) so she doesn´t show a very typical Basque result but she is near it. I was born and I live in the Basque Country.

    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 3.7422% / 0.03742166

    54.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    29.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    14.2 WHG
    2.2 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
    Distance: 3.5801% / 0.03580141

    58.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    27.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    10.8 WHG
    3.8 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
    Distance: 4.7260% / 0.04726048

    52.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    30.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    15.6 WHG
    1.6 MAR_Taforalt

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    Nino, I am not so sure that higher WHG means higher Germanic admixture.

    If I have to bet something I would say that Germanic admixture was higher in Northern Italy and some areas of central-southern Italy (Appenines between Abruzzo and Lazio, Molise, Benevento area), but maybe becauses of the admixture of previous populations, maybe because of later admixture between surrounding populations, the autosomal impact was probably "limited".

    I am not an expert of Iberian history. For the time being, IMO, the PCAs are the best way to look at it.
    Iberians, generally speaking, basically plot west of Northern Italy (on a west-south line you have Iberians - N. Italy - Mid Balkans).
    Germans and Austrians seems to be North of this Balkan cluster (so slightly eastern of N. Italians and Iberians, because of steppe I guess), while French are more well spread between Iberians, north of N. Italians or even closer to Germany and so east-shifted.

    That's just to say that it's really hard do say that's Germanic or that's not, especially looking at deep ancestry such as WHG.

    It's not rare to see N. Italians (and your father is north shifted to be at the border between Tuscany and Emilia) scoring Iberian samples. As you can see in my previous post the ancestral difference is not huge and is mostly more WHG on the Iberian side and more Steppe on the N. Italian side.

    Similarly, someone who plot Central Italian as me, has a great fit with Mainland Greece/Albania/Macedonia.

    Southern Italians, will probably often score Greek Islands often.
    You are right. Basque for example have very high WHG and probably no Germanic admixture.

    Maybe I should have said Steppe. Swedes can have above 50% Steppe for example.

    Yes. Also it would be interesting to see how much "Celtic/Gaul" admixture there is in North Italy.

    But the last study on French Bronze-Iron age DNA showed individuals with admixture similar from North to South French and even Spaniards.

    But most of them were low coverage/Low snps.

    You are right on that one. There is also another great question related to all this. How much impact did the Romans on Spain and France?

    I also noticed that Central Italians are similar to Albanians etc. But Central Italians of course lack the Slavic admixture that Balkan populations have.

    Even Albanians have 10-20% Slavic.

    South Italians and Greek Islanders are more or less the same people. Most likely because of the many Greek colonies in South Italy in the Iron age.
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 3.1640% / 0.03163963 | R3P
    64.4 __Germanic
    26.4 __IllyricRoman
    9.2 __Finnic

  15. #19
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    H1a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    My mother is Basque and all her ancestor (As far as I can know) are from the Southernmost Basque province(Álava) so she doesn´t show a very typical Basque result but she is near it. I was born and I live in the Basque Country.

    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 3.7422% / 0.03742166

    54.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    29.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    14.2 WHG
    2.2 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
    Distance: 3.5801% / 0.03580141

    58.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    27.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    10.8 WHG
    3.8 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
    Distance: 4.7260% / 0.04726048

    52.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    30.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    15.6 WHG
    1.6 MAR_Taforalt
    Thanks your for posting.


    1.png
    2.png
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 3.1640% / 0.03163963 | R3P
    64.4 __Germanic
    26.4 __IllyricRoman
    9.2 __Finnic

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Nino90 For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-22-2021),  sweuro (04-20-2021)

  17. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    942
    Sex
    Location
    Barcelona
    Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Nationality
    España
    Y-DNA (P)
    E1b1a1-Z6015
    mtDNA (M)
    V

    Spain Badajoz Spain Extremadura
    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    And adding "Natufian" to the model, "MAR_Taforalt " dissapears but...

    Code:
    Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
    DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
    MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 2.5729% / 0.02572949

    81.2 Iberia_North_IA
    10.8 DEU_MA
    8.0 Levant_Natufian

    Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
    Distance: 3.6437% / 0.03643742

    84.0 Iberia_North_IA
    12.0 Levant_Natufian
    4.0 DEU_MA

    Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
    Distance: 2.4791% / 0.02479117

    80.4 Iberia_North_IA
    15.2 DEU_MA
    4.4 Levant_Natufian
    High distances in both:


    Target: Juan_scaled
    Distance: 4.5036% / 0.04503611

    84.0 Iberia_North_IA
    8.6 DEU_MA
    7.4 MAR_Taforalt

    Natufian:

    Target: Juan_scaled
    Distance: 4.4210% / 0.04420982

    78.2 Iberia_North_IA
    11.6 DEU_MA
    5.4 MAR_Taforalt
    4.8 Levant_Natufian

    [1] "distance%=1.9178"

    JJJ

    NW_Iberia_IA,79.8
    Roman_Colonial,12.4
    Berber_EMA,7.8

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to JJJ For This Useful Post:

     Nino90 (04-20-2021)

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