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Thread: How much Germanic admixture does Iberians have?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caius Agrippa View Post
    I already stated how these things work in this thread, be my guest. Some people are trying to take from some tools what they were not designed to do and/or cannot do. By the way, the results of your Colombian mom demonstrate perfectly what I said previously: it is impossible for anyone that actually has a clue on what's going on here that a mainly Spanish + some Amerindian mix has more Roman ancestry and Taforalt ancestry than a full Spaniard. I say again: you cannot properly differentiate Celtic from Germanic input in Iberians with any Global 25 model, perhaps with any tool easily accessible to commoners by now. You can create any model possible with any possible samples, but you can't do this magic.
    Hopefully one day we will, we have the same occurring in France with North Western France appearing more "Northern" (closer to Dutch) than North Eastern France despite having certainly much less "Germanic" ancestry, while the G25 could give the impression of the contrary....
    Last edited by jstephan; 04-21-2021 at 07:49 PM.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJJ View Post
    Blank spaces are easy to erase with a program.
    Ahora ya tengo una forma de detectarlos rápidamente, pero aún así, es un paso que te hace perder tiempo, especialmente si te das cuenta cuando ya has hecho los averages.

    Now I already have a way to detect them quickly, but still, it's a time-consuming step, especially if you realize when you've done the averages.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    As you can see, you score more in DEU_MA than my father.

    We can get in some of us shorter distance adding Guanches instead Mar_Taforalt, but Guanches have some "Iberian-like" in them, so our Iberian % will decrease and because of that reason our Guanche in the role of pointing our NA will increase slightly.

    Code:
    ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
    Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
    DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
    Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
    Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 1.9815% / 0.01981498

    75.4 Iberia_North_IA
    17.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    5.2 DEU_MA
    2.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche

    Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
    Distance: 2.3757% / 0.02375686

    70.0 Iberia_North_IA
    23.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    6.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche

    Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
    Distance: 2.1772% / 0.02177204

    75.8 Iberia_North_IA
    12.4 DEU_MA
    9.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    2.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    Target: Xabier_scaled
    Distance: 3.0716% / 0.03071554
    47.0 Iberia_North_IA
    27.0 DEU_MA
    20.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    5.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche


    Target: Dad_scaled
    Distance: 1.9372% / 0.01937189
    60.2 Iberia_North_IA
    22.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    15.0 DEU_MA
    2.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche


    Target: Mom_scaled
    Distance: 2.4422% / 0.02442169
    47.6 Iberia_North_IA
    23.2 DEU_MA
    15.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    13.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    Las MASCARILLAS obligatorias en ESPAÑA debido al CORONAVIRUS

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  6. #64
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    My distance with this sample:

    Distance to: hantro_scaled
    0.09842342 Germanic:byAndre(n=11)

    Anyway when it comes to Vikings they say: they were Scandinavians with another haplogroup.

    When it comes to Goths arriving in Spain they say: they were not Goths.


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  8. #65
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    Why are you people using DEU_MA average reference when the individual samples are so heterogenous? It doesn't make sense, you'll skew the model horrifically. It's a much better approach to use ancient germanic samples - not just from Germany - and make a selection based on, for example, cluster analysis and select the ones that don't seem to have significant admixture from ancient neighbouring populations. The real figure is likely small, so small these tools might just be giving overfitted results. Figures of 20% are absolutely impossible.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

    Ruderico

    NW_Iberia_IA,80.4
    Berber_EMA,11
    Roman_Colonial,8.6

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  10. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Why are you people using DEU_MA average reference when the individual samples are so heterogenous? It doesn't make sense, you'll skew the model horrifically. It's a much better approach to use ancient germanic samples - not just from Germany - and make a selection based on, for example, cluster analysis and select the ones that don't seem to have significant admixture from ancient neighbouring populations. The real figure is likely small, so small these tools might just be giving overfitted results. Figures of 20% are absolutely impossible.
    YOU think These Germanics In Iberia arrived Mixed or Scandinavian Like? Also how much % Germanic you estimate among Portuguese/Galicians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    YOU think These Germanics In Iberia arrived Mixed or Scandinavian Like? Also how much % Germanic you estimate among Portuguese/Galicians?
    Goths were definitely mixed, as can be seen by their own samples. The Suebi were possibly not, or if they were then it was with similar populations and these tools won't be able to detect that, considering they were originally an East Germanic group that migrated to modern West Germany prior to moving into Iberia. I assume they'd be similar to the Lombard samples we currently have. I have no idea on the %, but 20 is not possible imo, it'd have a brutal uniparental impact that is not seen anywhere.

    We must also keep in mind that what might be interpreted as "Germanic" might originally be from medieval colonisation during the Reconquista, in which foreigners were occasionally involved, migrants from the Roman Empire, or something with higher steppe ancestry that we're not aware of. Or all of these.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

    Ruderico

    NW_Iberia_IA,80.4
    Berber_EMA,11
    Roman_Colonial,8.6

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  13. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Goths were definitely mixed, as can be seen by their own samples. The Suebi were possibly not, or if they were then it was with similar populations and these tools won't be able to detect that, considering they were originally an East Germanic group that migrated to modern West Germany prior to moving into Iberia. I assume they'd be similar to the Lombard samples we currently have. I have no idea on the %, but 20 is not possible imo, it'd have a brutal uniparental impact that is not seen anywhere.

    We must also keep in mind that what might be interpreted as "Germanic" might originally be from medieval colonisation during the Reconquista, in which foreigners were occasionally involved, migrants from the Roman Empire, or something with higher steppe ancestry that we're not aware of. Or all of these.
    Ok. Do you seeing any germanic lineages(ydna-mtdna) among Iberians or very rarely? I am asking because before the islamic occupation of Iberia, the Christian lords were mostly of Germanic roots.. or I am wrong? Even the name Ruderico Is germanic right? I mean obviously If they did not had a strong impact in terms of autosomal DNA they had on ydna etc i guess. But I am not an expert to it.

  14. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Ok. Do you seeing any germanic lineages(ydna-mtdna) among Iberians or very rarely? I am asking because before the islamic occupation of Iberia, the Christian lords were mostly of Germanic roots.. or I am wrong? Even the name Ruderico Is germanic right? I mean obviously If they did not had a strong impact in terms of autosomal DNA they had on ydna etc i guess. But I am not an expert to it.
    There are a few, one of our members here in AG is R-U106, for example, but from what I've seen the frequencies are kind of low, and not what you'd expect from a significant population turnover.

    I'm not really sure if all the Christian lords were necessarily of Germanic background, to be perfect honest. When these Germanic-speaking groups originally arrived here in Iberia they mingled and allied with (some) local Hispano-Roman elites as a means to secure their power. Sure, they also became the elite, and there were definite cultural elements that permeated into the locals because of its status, such as the names, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all rulers were of Germanic background, including those who had Germanic names. Two of the most important early medieval Iberian kings had Latin names, Miro of the Suebi, and Pelayo of Asturias.

    The high frequency of these names in west Iberia, including in modern surnames, is a consequence of the Kingdom of Leon - heir to the Kingdom of Asturias - who claimed descent from the Visigothic Kingdom as a means to legitimise their power over the Christian nobility and population, but modern historiography is a little sceptical of this being a real thing. Over the ages Germanic names became extremely popular, and when patronymics were dropped in favour of our current family names you ended up with a large amount of Germanic surnames, such as Rodríguez/Rodrigues (son of Rodrigo/Rodericho/Ruderico/etc). This is mostly seem in the western part of Iberia, not so much in the east, which is ironic because actual Visigothic influence here in the west was weaker due to us being in the periphery.

    What you do see are germanic toponyms, they are fairly common in NW Iberia (both my parents were born in Municipalities with germanic names - Gondomar/Gundemar and Mangualde/Manwalda) but again since these are overwhelmingly derived from personal names we don't really know if these men were really germanic, hispano-germanic, or just hispano-roman with a germanic name.

    If anything the fact that Spanish Gothic samples are heterogeneous should give us an idea that "Iberian Germans" were far from isolated folks who only married with each other over the generations. I'm pretty sure there's some germanic ancestry dating from that period around here, but I'm still fairly sceptic it was very significant. I'm not comfortable giving figures, but if I had to I'd point to maybe around 5% average. Some more, some less.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
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    NW_Iberia_IA,80.4
    Berber_EMA,11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Goths were definitely mixed, as can be seen by their own samples. The Suebi were possibly not, or if they were then it was with similar populations and these tools won't be able to detect that, considering they were originally an East Germanic group that migrated to modern West Germany prior to moving into Iberia. I assume they'd be similar to the Lombard samples we currently have. I have no idea on the %, but 20 is not possible imo, it'd have a brutal uniparental impact that is not seen anywhere.

    We must also keep in mind that what might be interpreted as "Germanic" might originally be from medieval colonisation during the Reconquista, in which foreigners were occasionally involved, migrants from the Roman Empire, or something with higher steppe ancestry that we're not aware of. Or all of these.


    a map created by a german historian circa 1820 of ancient german tribes

    note the Vindili ( vandals ) confederation on the baltic coast, consists of longobards and Burgundians

    The Suevi ( Suebi ) confederation sit under the Vindili confederation

    This map should be Roman times , early AD ..............after Augustus conquered the very many tribal groups in the Alps in 15BC ................the Romans would have garrisoned the Vindelicia and Noricum on the south side of the Danube river and the border


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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