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Thread: How much Germanic admixture does Iberians have?

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    There are a few, one of our members here in AG is R-U106, for example, but from what I've seen the frequencies are kind of low, and not what you'd expect from a significant population turnover.

    I'm not really sure if all the Christian lords were necessarily of Germanic background, to be perfect honest. When these Germanic-speaking groups originally arrived here in Iberia they mingled and allied with (some) local Hispano-Roman elites as a means to secure their power. Sure, they also became the elite, and there were definite cultural elements that permeated into the locals because of its status, such as the names, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all rulers were of Germanic background, including those who had Germanic names. Two of the most important early medieval Iberian kings had Latin names, Miro of the Suebi, and Pelayo of Asturias.

    The high frequency of these names in west Iberia, including in modern surnames, is a consequence of the Kingdom of Leon - heir to the Kingdom of Asturias - who claimed descent from the Visigothic Kingdom as a means to legitimise their power over the Christian nobility and population, but modern historiography is a little sceptical of this being a real thing. Over the ages Germanic names became extremely popular, and when patronymics were dropped in favour of our current family names you ended up with a large amount of Germanic surnames, such as Rodríguez/Rodrigues (son of Rodrigo/Rodericho/Ruderico/etc). This is mostly seem in the western part of Iberia, not so much in the east, which is ironic because actual Visigothic influence here in the west was weaker due to us being in the periphery.

    What you do see are germanic toponyms, they are fairly common in NW Iberia (both my parents were born in Municipalities with germanic names - Gondomar/Gundemar and Mangualde/Manwalda) but again since these are overwhelmingly derived from personal names we don't really know if these men were really germanic, hispano-germanic, or just hispano-roman with a germanic name.

    If anything the fact that Spanish Gothic samples are heterogeneous should give us an idea that "Iberian Germans" were far from isolated folks who only married with each other over the generations. I'm pretty sure there's some germanic ancestry dating from that period around here, but I'm still fairly sceptic it was very significant. I'm not comfortable giving figures, but if I had to I'd point to maybe around 5% average. Some more, some less.
    K thank you for these informations.I would like also to ask you what 'thoughts' the Reconquista folks had.Okay,they were obviously Christians and they were seeing muslims as enemies and hostile.How you think these populations during Reconquista would consider themselves those times in terms of 'ethnics'.This might sounds stupid but they would consider to be Ibero-Romans,Hispano-Romans,Romans,Iberians,Germano-Romans,Germanics,Iberians or a mix of all these ethnics?I am not gonna mention Celtic since its prolly quite old to classify themselves as such.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Ok. Do you seeing any germanic lineages(ydna-mtdna) among Iberians or very rarely? I am asking because before the islamic occupation of Iberia, the Christian lords were mostly of Germanic roots.. or I am wrong? Even the name Ruderico Is germanic right? I mean obviously If they did not had a strong impact in terms of autosomal DNA they had on ydna etc i guess. But I am not an expert to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    There are a few, one of our members here in AG is R-U106, for example, but from what I've seen the frequencies are kind of low, and not what you'd expect from a significant population turnover.
    Of the 996 DF19s on FTDNA's blocktree, none have MDKA from Spain and one has a MDKA from Portugal.

    This may mean more about DF19's distribution in specific Germanic tribes (western?) than it does about the presence of Germanic in Iberia, though.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  4. #73
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    Not quite sure they considered themselves anything more than locals, and I mean from their specific region, probably under a religious or noble authority (parish, etc). These ethnic labels we use probably meant nothing then, ethnicity in the past wasn't viewed like today, from what I know it was mostly about what language you spoke, where you were born and raised, who were your parents, what religion you followed, how you dressed and what mannerisms you had. People were much more pragmatic and didn't really care if they were 1/32 this, 1/16 that, or whatever, this is more a modern view on the issue. The best example is how people used to view kings: Philip II of Spain (Philip I of Portugal) was seen as a foreign king, despite his mother being Portuguese. João III of Portugal was seen as a Portuguese king, but his mother was Spanish/Aragonese.
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    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    K thank you for these informations.I would like also to ask you what 'thoughts' the Reconquista folks had.Okay,they were obviously Christians and they were seeing muslims as enemies and hostile.How you think these populations during Reconquista would consider themselves those times in terms of 'ethnics'.This might sounds stupid but they would consider to be Ibero-Romans,Hispano-Romans,Romans,Iberians,Germano-Romans,Germanics,Iberians or a mix of all these ethnics?I am not gonna mention Celtic since its prolly quite old to classify themselves as such.

    According to historian Isidro García Cigüenza, the origin of Omar's surname was Hafs and to this was added the term "un" which among the Arabs was a distinctive of nobility, leaving the surname as Hafsún.

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_ben_Hafs%C3%BAn

    You can read the story of the Hispanic-Gothic Omar Ben Hafsun, later called Samuel The new system allows us to see how the relations between the different ethnic groups could be.

    It is almost better to translate the Spanish version since the English versions for Spanish subjects are usually very brief.
    Last edited by hantrolugharsts; 04-23-2021 at 12:19 AM.

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