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Thread: How much Germanic admixture does Iberians have?

  1. #1
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    How much Germanic admixture does Iberians have?

    The Iberian penisula has been invaded by both Celts/Gauls and Germanic groups.

    It is quite clear that Iberians are overall more north shifted than Italians on average. And most mainland Iberians have similar levels of the same components as North Alpine Italians.
    Some do also have a very tiny percent admixture from North Africa. This could have come long time ago (Iberomaurusian) or in early Medieval times during the Moorish invasion.

    However - Here I want to discuss who much Germanic admixture Iberians have.

    Can somebody do a good calculator to show?

    Target: Spanish_Cataluna
    Distance: 3.2955% / 0.03295543
    54.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    29.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    13.6 WHG
    2.8 MAR_Taforalt
    Target: Spanish_Soria
    Distance: 3.9218% / 0.03921793
    53.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    30.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    15.0 WHG
    1.4 MAR_Taforalt

    VS

    Target: Italian_Aosta_Valley
    Distance: 2.8734% / 0.02873368
    53.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    37.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    9.0 WHG

    Target: Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    Distance: 2.4244% / 0.02424364
    57.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    34.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    8.2 WHG

    As you see overall that Alpine Italians and Spaniards are similar.

    Spaniards do have higher WHG and a bit lower EEF, and also a small amount of North African admixture.
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 3.1640% / 0.03163963 | R3P
    64.4 __Germanic
    26.4 __IllyricRoman
    9.2 __Finnic

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  3. #2
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    I think it's pretty tough to calculate the Germanic admixture in Med populations. Trentino Sudtirol should have much more Germanic admixture than pretty much any other non-germanic region in Europe (being 1/2 Germanic and the other 1/2 heavily influenced).

    For what I understand, Iberians simply have significantly more WHG than Italians on average, a bit less Steppe and EEF/ENF, and almost every Iberian has some MAR.

    Italians vice-versa are much more diverse than Iberians, you can rarely see MAR but you see Levant and IRN which is stronger in the south, weaker as you go north until it disappears or become almost noise. Similar trend for WHG and Steppe which increase going north. Differences among Italians can be seen, from the samples we have, also within regions and macroregions, especially north or east of the Appenines.

    If we have to do an "Italian average" vs an "Iberian average" I don't think that the game is just North vs South, but probably more (N)West vs (S)East. Overall the differences reflect surprisingly well the geography of the two peninsulas.

    I have to be honest, as a newbie, I was surprised looking at Iberian results. I would have expected a similar trend to what we see in Italy (i.e. MAR much stronger in Andalucia with a cline that makes it 0 when you go north).

    I am also looking forward to see how things will change once we'll have more samples and better calculators.
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

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    Does anyone know why the classic bar chart from the Haak et al steppe paper shows Spaniards as having zero WHG ancestry?


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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Does anyone know why the classic bar chart from the Haak et al steppe paper shows Spaniards as having zero WHG ancestry?

    because this is from an old ass study from 2013 which is outdated today, as we have much better tools and analysis

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  9. #5
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    With the exception of overfitted models, I have not seen any Germanic mix in Iberians.

    [1] "distance%=1.9178"

    JJJ

    NW_Iberia_IA,79.8
    Roman_Colonial,12.4
    Berber_EMA,7.8

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Does anyone know why the classic bar chart from the Haak et al steppe paper shows Spaniards as having zero WHG ancestry?

    That's one of the reasons why I often say let's see what will the results be in 10 years time. I guess we are still in an almost pioneer era!

    By the way, taking all the individual samples I have these are the Iberian avg (excluding basques) and Italian avg (excluding sardinians, including sicilians and 3 swiss italians):
    Iberian: 0.03781985
    Barcin 52.3%
    Yamnaya_Samara 29.6%
    WHG 12.0%
    MAR_Taforalt 3.2%
    Tepecik 2.5%
    Noise 0.4% (Han, Levant PPNB, Yoruba, Iran_Shahr_I_Sokhta)

    Italian: 0.02682657
    Barcin 33.4%
    Tepecik: 26.9%
    Yamnaya_Samara: 30%
    WHG: 4%
    Kura Araxes: 1.9%
    Levant PPNB: 1.7%
    IRN_Ganji Dareh: 1.3%
    Noise: 0.9% (Han, Iran_Shahr_I_Sokhta, MAR)

    Since compared to Iberians Italians have more macroregional diversity, here are the splits in macrogroups (although we may argue that 3 are too few):

    Northern Italy (Swiss Italian, Piedmont, Liguria, Aosta, Lombardy, Bergamo, Veneto, Trentino, Northeast):
    Barcin: 50.4%
    Yamnaya_Samara: 35.1%
    WHG: 7.4%
    Tepecik: 6.6%
    Noise: 0.5% (Han, Kura Araxes, Levant PPNB, Mar)

    Central Italy (Tuscany, Lazio, Marche, Umbria):
    Tepecik: 32.4%
    Barcin: 30.2%
    Yamnaya_Samara: 30.0%
    WHG: 2.9%
    Kura Araxes: 1.6%
    Levant PPNB: 1.4%
    Noise: 1.5% (IRN, Han, Mar)

    Southern Italy (Abruzzo, Molise, Campania, Calabria, Basilicata, Apulia, Sicily):
    Tepecik: 44.7%
    Yamnaya_Samara: 24.6%
    Barcin: 17.6%
    Kura Araxes: 4%
    Levant PPNB: 3.5%
    IRN_Ganji_Dareh:3.1%
    WHG: 1%
    Noise: 1.5% (Han, Mar, Yoruba, Shahr_I_Sokhta)
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post

    Central Italy (Tuscany, Lazio, Marche, Umbria):
    Tepecik: 32.4%
    Barcin: 30.2%
    Yamnaya_Samara: 30.0%
    WHG: 2.9%
    [B]Kura Araxes: 1.6%
    Levant PPNB: 1.4%
    Noise: 1.5% (IRN, Han, Mar)
    Thanks for sharing!

    Make it clear that Spaniards have much more WHG and some MAR as expected.

    Tepecik is mostly Barcin with some levantine + Caucasus admixture.
    Target: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    Distance: 1.8855% / 0.01885526
    64.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    18.2 Levant_PPNB
    17.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    But back to the discussion.

    How can we break down the Germanic admixture in the Iberian penisula?

    This is an awful model. But just a try.

    I guess we need some Celt-Iberian samples + maybe Romans aswell?

    Target: Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    Distance: 2.8909% / 0.02890889
    82.6 Iberia_North_IA
    11.2 DEU_MA
    6.2 MAR_Taforalt
    Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    Distance: 3.3354% / 0.03335354
    93.4 Iberia_North_IA
    3.8 MAR_Taforalt
    2.8 DEU_MA
    Target: Spanish_Castello
    Distance: 3.2150% / 0.03214964
    93.6 Iberia_North_IA
    3.8 DEU_MA
    2.6 MAR_Taforalt
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 3.1640% / 0.03163963 | R3P
    64.4 __Germanic
    26.4 __IllyricRoman
    9.2 __Finnic

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Tepecik is mostly Barcin with some levantine + Caucasus admixture.
    ...
    Yes, although...
     
    both Kura Araxes and Levant PPNB bring further Barcin-like components and are not just pure "levant" and "caucasus".
    Target: Levant_PPNB
    Distance: 3.6710% / 0.03671010
    53.6 Levant_Natufian
    46.4 TUR_Barcin_N

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    Distance: 3.5175% / 0.03517477
    43.2 GEO_CHG
    35.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.6 Levant_Natufian

    So I would say that Tepecik is at the end of all Barcin-like for ca. 80% (from what we know until now).
    That's why I like the way Davidski in his model put Tepecik when using Levant PPNB and Kura-Araxes. If you use only Barcin you should probably use Natufian and CHG instead. While we understand more and see more samples flowing in.
    Obviously populations which score Tepecik and not Barcin are a bit more 'east-med' leaning but it could actually be just EEF intermediated and not real levant.


    On Iberians yeah, much more WHG than any other med populations (and I would say relatively high for European standards overall). North African low but more or less in all Iberians.

    German components are really tough to estimate and probably would need using more sofisticated softwares to double check.
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

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  17. #9
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    I don't think G25 could give us a definitive answer on such issues, since it usually has a hard time differentiating between similar populations, in this case, ancient Celtic vs Germanic roots.

    On the original topic, I remember Maciamo Hay, the owner of Eupedia, touched on the subject of ancient Germanic influence in Iberia:

    "Overall, the Germanic migrations did not leave a lot of Germanic DNA in the Iberian peninsula. That is not suprising considering that there were only 40,000 Suebi who settled there permanently, and they were the biggest contigent if we exclude the heavily hybridised Visigoths. Galicia, northern and central Portugal, and Catalonia are the regions with the highest ratios of Germanic Y-DNA today (approx. 5 to 10% of the male lineages), which is consistent with the historical settlements of the Suebi, and the Frankish influence in Catalonia's case. Paternal lineages of the ruling classes, however, are generally an overestimation of the true genetic conttribution, since foreign invaders turned monarchs and nobles tend to procreate more by having multiple sexual partners (if not multiple wives, at least mistresses or concubines). Unfortunanately it is impossible at present to determine the amount of Germanic mtDNA, as this would require testing full mitochondrial sequences (which very few studies have done to date), and even then it may prove elusive due to the limitations of the extremely short mtDNA sequence. A reasonable estimation is that Germanic genes represent no more than 1% of the Iberian gene pool, with maximums of perhaps 3% or 4% in Galicia and northern Portugal."

    Source: https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spa...ugal_dna.shtml

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  19. #10
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    I myself who is of mixed Scandinavian and Italian background, often get Spanish in G25 and Gedmatch over Italian.

    If i for example use all Spanish average + my other ancestry samples:

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 2.0921% / 0.02092088
    58.4 Spanish_Mallorca
    18.2 Saami
    11.8 Spanish_La_Rioja
    9.8 Swedish
    1.8 Spanish_Girona
    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 2.3597% / 0.02359679
    49.6 Swedish
    38.8 Spanish_Soria
    9.8 Saami
    1.0 Spanish_Girona
    0.8 Spanish_La_Rioja
    Target: Brother_scaled
    Distance: 2.6271% / 0.02627056
    52.2 Swedish
    30.0 Spanish_Soria
    10.4 Saami
    7.4 Spanish_Extremadura
    VS

    All Italian samples without (Aosta - Too Germanic admixed):

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 2.0488% / 0.02048757
    31.2 Italian_Veneto
    27.0 Italian_Umbria

    26.0 Swedish
    15.8 Saami
    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 2.9140% / 0.02914014
    61.2 Swedish
    18.6 Italian_Veneto
    11.2 Italian_Umbria

    9.0 Saami
    Target: Brother_scaled
    Distance: 2.9542% / 0.02954243
    67.4 Swedish
    23.6 Italian_Umbria
    9.0 Saami
    Is this due to the reason that I and my family has higher WHG because of Scandinavian ancestry?

    Also as you may notice Iberian sample give us better fit.

    Or is it because Iberians have Germanic admixture.

    Aosta has nearly the same amount of WHG as Iberians.
    And it comes from Germanic admixture.

    Target: Italian_Aosta_Valley
    Distance: 2.8734% / 0.02873368
    53.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    37.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    9.0 WHG
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 3.1640% / 0.03163963 | R3P
    64.4 __Germanic
    26.4 __IllyricRoman
    9.2 __Finnic

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