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Thread: Huns, Avars and Hungarian Conquerors

  1. #11
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    You cannot use the ''distance'' feature of Vahaduo in recently admixed persons/populations like this one, the results will be unrealistic and the distances are very high. You have to use the ''single'' to have meaningful results.
    Last edited by Caius Agrippa; 04-22-2021 at 10:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    In the 9th century mostly so, but not all, because new people came and there is the question about the Vlachs. Depends on the exact region I'd say.
    What are your thoughts on the origin of the Vlachs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    These results (if correct) are interesting...



    Pitvaros-Víztározó - 225 graves of the late Avar cemetery on the outskirts of the Pitvaros village (Csongrád County, Hungary) was excavated between 1993–1996 by Lívia Bende. On the basis of the special burial customs the community, which has used this cemetery, seems to have been the descendants of the population of the Eastern European origin known in the early Avar period. The small community, which has opened the cemetery, stretched from the western part of the Transtisza region to the area inside the rivers around the middle of the 7th century. The community kept their special burial customs all the way (catacomb graves, partial sacrificial animals etc.). The cemetery was used between 650/660 and the end of the 8th century.
    The skull of the Europid type mature man buried into the catacomb grave 72 was slightly distorted. The burial customs, primarily the catacomb grave is a characteristic of the population of the Eastern European origin, but the man wore the Meroving-type belt decorated with metal inlay, which was supposed to be a gift from a Meroving cultures community of the Transdanubia. The grave was dated to the turn of the 7th-8th centuries.

    Some Finnic vibe, if real. Latvians, Mordvins, Kargapol... Balto-Slavs with Finnic touch.
    Last edited by Moderator; 04-23-2021 at 02:13 AM. Reason: Removal of reference to LukaszM's material/tools

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    What are your thoughts on the origin of the Vlachs?
    I have no strong opinion on them, but I think they derive from Romanised Daco-Thracians, which includes some real Roman influence in the mix, which retreated to the mountains when the Slavs took the lowlands. I think that Vlachs in that sense were a pretty diverse bunch of different people surviving in a similar mode of production and defense, being pastoralists of the highlands and mountains.

    Where their centre was, whether there even was one big centre, or there was exchange between different subpopulations and communities which arose more independently from each other, I don't know at all. The most interesting part about Romanians is however, that the lowlands were completely in Slavic hands for a couple of generations, even much more so than in some regions which are nowadays South Slavic. That Romance speaking Vlachs kept the upper hand on the long term is a real interesting phenomenon and in part historical coincidence. I would be always careful about whether we think only one people lived in a larger region, because from a lot of places where we have more detailed information from, we know that in different habitats and spacial pockets could live very different ethnicities, even in large regions with a clearly dominant group. That's what making it so hard. Paternal lineages will decide it, how much was a founder effect, which group and region was dominant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    In the ninth century, all these were ethnolinguistic Slavs.
    https://eng.polgariszemle.hu/archive...s-long-history

    Sum*mary
    This paper will fol*low the eth*nic and demo*graphic changes of Hun*gary across the chan*ging as*pects of Hun*garian his*tory. It will dis*cuss the is*sues of war, dev*ast*at*ing sick*nesses, mi*gra*tion and emig*ra*tion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    What are your thoughts on the origin of the Vlachs?
    While there is a gap of several hundred years in the history of the Romanians, the Vlachs seem to have existed in the southern Balkans (though not necessarily in the same precise locations) since the Roman conquest. Here we enter the turbulent waters of Balkan history, which has regularly been subordinated to present national imperatives. In this case, the Romanians and Hungarians both covet Transylvania and have sought to legitimize their claims to it by asserting historical priority in that region. Thus, the Hungarians theorize that the Romanians are really Vlachs from the southern Balkans who migrated north of the Danube during the Middle Ages (i.e., after the Hungarians arrived). The Romanians respond by asserting that they are the descendants of the indigenous Dacians north of the Danube who, though conquered and partially assimilated by the Romans, have continued to exist in all current Romanian lands since antiquity. Romanians see the Vlachs alternately as indigenous Thracians south of the Danube who were Romanized (the Dacians were a Thracian tribe) and as Romanians from north of the Danube who migrated south.

    http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publ...orn-assimilate

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    Quote Originally Posted by gravetti View Post
    While there is a gap of several hundred years in the history of the Romanians, the Vlachs seem to have existed in the southern Balkans (though not necessarily in the same precise locations) since the Roman conquest. Here we enter the turbulent waters of Balkan history, which has regularly been subordinated to present national imperatives. In this case, the Romanians and Hungarians both covet Transylvania and have sought to legitimize their claims to it by asserting historical priority in that region. Thus, the Hungarians theorize that the Romanians are really Vlachs from the southern Balkans who migrated north of the Danube during the Middle Ages (i.e., after the Hungarians arrived). The Romanians respond by asserting that they are the descendants of the indigenous Dacians north of the Danube who, though conquered and partially assimilated by the Romans, have continued to exist in all current Romanian lands since antiquity. Romanians see the Vlachs alternately as indigenous Thracians south of the Danube who were Romanized (the Dacians were a Thracian tribe) and as Romanians from north of the Danube who migrated south.

    http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publ...orn-assimilate
    Just like with Indoeuropeans or many other such topics, the debate is, one might say, hundreds of years old and was fierce at times, with, from my point of view, no satisfying solution until now. Its up to ancient DNA to enlighten us who was right or wrong - or whether alternative scenarios or a synthesis (imho most likely) is closer to the true events. For most such cases I just say follow the path of the patrilineages.

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    There were many Roman settlers in West Balkans. Constantine VII mentions them in DAI and calls them 'Romani' and he refers to a movement of people around 284 to 305 AD (when Diocletian was the Emperor. Diocletian was from what is now Croatia).

    According to the text which can be partially inaccurate, they were expelled by Avars (though he seems to use the term Avar for populations that at least included a Slavic element too), who were expelled by Croats (who seem to have been essentially invited by Heraclius).

    The Romance speakers of West Balkans could have expanded East and South. I haven't ever seen anyone consider if they could have played a role.

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    Hungarian is a Finno-Ugric dialect on a Slavic language substrate (Helimski, 1988). Therefore, we are sure that during the period of the Magyar conquest, the Pannonian Basin was inhabited only by the Slavic ethnolinguistic group, or at least this group definitely dominated here.

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    In other words: the early Medieval Pannonian Slavs genetically predominantly resembled the populations of West, Central and South Europe, but certainly not East Slavic population.

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