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Thread: Confusion and 67-Marker Test Results -- R1b1a2 (M269)

  1. #1
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    United States of America Germany Scotland

    Confusion and 67-Marker Test Results -- R1b1a2 (M269)

    A few years ago I took the original Geneographic 1.0 test that showed me as R1b M343 and recently upgraded my results with the 67-marker test from Family Tree which showed me as R1b1a2 M269...so far, so good in looking at Western Europe. However, no close matches except a hand full at the 12-marker level which I think is not too relative. So, I tested for L21, U106, and P312...all three returned negative results. I then proceeded to try two predictive programs..one thought I should try L265 or M520 while Jim Cullen's predictive program said I am R1b (E. Europe 72%), S28 (17%), S21 Scottish (less than 1%) plus a couple of others.

    Our oral family history (confirmed by another branch separated by 150-170 years in relationship) says we are descended from Scots who settled in Germany in the early-1600s...and the name with only a couple of minor exceptions has always been spelled BLACK. The 67-marker results include a somewhat rare DYS390=26.

    Because of the relative lack of matches and the confusion between East and Western European R1B, the question is where do I go from here? What test might resolve my proper haplogroup?

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to 2Bellies For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (04-03-2014)

  3. #2
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    We need to see your data to give you advice. Please, give us the number of your sample and the name of the project in which it can be viewed.

  4. #3
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    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    Quote Originally Posted by 2Bellies View Post
    A few years ago I took the original Geneographic 1.0 test that showed me as R1b M343 and recently upgraded my results with the 67-marker test from Family Tree which showed me as R1b1a2 M269...so far, so good in looking at Western Europe. However, no close matches except a hand full at the 12-marker level which I think is not too relative. So, I tested for L21, U106, and P312...all three returned negative results. I then proceeded to try two predictive programs..one thought I should try L265 or M520 while Jim Cullen's predictive program said I am R1b (E. Europe 72%), S28 (17%), S21 Scottish (less than 1%) plus a couple of others.

    Our oral family history (confirmed by another branch separated by 150-170 years in relationship) says we are descended from Scots who settled in Germany in the early-1600s...and the name with only a couple of minor exceptions has always been spelled BLACK. The 67-marker results include a somewhat rare DYS390=26.

    Because of the relative lack of matches and the confusion between East and Western European R1B, the question is where do I go from here? What test might resolve my proper haplogroup?

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
    Hello 2Bellies and welcome to Anthrogenica.
    Please share your kit number. smal knows this area of the y-tree very well. DYS390=26 is rather rare so it will be interesting to see it in the context of the other 66 STR alleles.
    By definition you meet the criteria for the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project), please join it.
    The goal of the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project is to investigate the history and distribution of the most upstream (or basal) clades of haplogroup R1b1b2. The project is open to anyone tested to be M269+ U106- P312-. You may join our project by clicking this link.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by smal View Post
    We need to see your data to give you advice. Please, give us the number of your sample and the name of the project in which it can be viewed.
    Smal, probably the haplotype is this:

    BP7SY Black Biedenkopf (area), Germany
    12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 16 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 12 19 23 15 16 20 17 36 38 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 21 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 21 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    I throw away DYS19b, that probably doesn't exist. Perhaps an R-Z2110, linked with the other ones from the Isles.

  6. #5
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    67-marker Data

    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Smal, probably the haplotype is this:

    BP7SY Black Biedenkopf (area), Germany
    12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 16 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 12 19 23 15 16 20 17 36 38 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 21 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 21 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    I throw away DYS19b, that probably doesn't exist. Perhaps an R-Z2110, linked with the other ones from the Isles.

    Yes, that's my data...any comments/suggestions appreciated.

  7. #6
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    United States of America Germany Scotland
    Family Tree DNA kit - 321758 or YSearch = Bp7SY

    Tks much to all of you for the help.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to 2Bellies For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (04-04-2014)

  9. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 2Bellies View Post
    Yes, that's my data...any comments/suggestions appreciated.
    I have already said everything: "Perhaps an R-Z2110, linked with the other ones from the Isles".
    What does it mean this?
    1) With your series
    8 10 10 8 10 11
    11 13 11 11 12 12
    you belong to the modal of R-Z2110: mine: KV7Y2 (Italy), Nochev (Bulgaria) etc., and I think we are linked within the 4000 years
    2) the closest to you seems Hollingsworth, I know well from many years like an R-L23 from the Isles
    3) coming from Scotland you belong probably to the L23 of the said "Border Rivers"
    4) it will be interesting to know when they reached Scotland and from where, but they come from nearby the Hadrian's Wall, and I have supposed they come, like the other two clusters I'll speak below, from Roman soldiers, we don't know so far from which part of the Empire, but this is what we are trying to know
    5) in England we know the two clusters of R-Z2110* (tested), that of Seymour and Ware and that of Locke, in between there is the Italian Romitti. Unfortunately Ware, who received his Big Y like Nochev, doesn't answer my letter asking his novel SNPs to compare with Nochev's and the Kurdish Jew of the paper of Rootsy 2013 about the Levites R1a
    6) your haplotype with DYS390=26 and other mutations demonstrates that the R-L23 "Border Rivers" are older and more differentiated than we thought
    7) thus every your test will be appreciated and useful for we all, also Chromo2, a little expensive with the only raw data of the Y you should compare with mine. Better the Big Y or YFull.
    Last edited by Rathna; 04-04-2014 at 09:10 AM.

  10. #8
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    2Bellies, as Rathna said you most probably belong to the R1b-Z2110 subclade (M269 -> L23 -> Z2103, Z2105 -> Z2110/CTS7822).
    To support this hypothesis you could order:
    1) Z2103 or Z2105 in FTDNA;
    2) Geno2.0 chip in Genographic/FTDNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822;
    3) Chromo2 chip in Britains DNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822;
    4 best choice) BigY in FTDNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822 and to discover new SNPs that will allow us to develop a new specific for you branch of the Y-tree.

  11. #9
    Of course I mostly agree with smal, but I think that the best choices are only two:
    1) if 2Bellies wants to spend a little: Chromo2, because not only there is Z2110/CTS7822, but also all the other linked SNPs and, belonging probably to my subclade Z2110**, also my about 15 new SNPs to compare with
    2) if 2Bellies may spend more: Big Y, because he could compare with Nochev, with Ware (when he will decide to publish his novel SNPs) and with others to come.

  12. #10
    On Ysearch there are many interesting haplotypes close to 2Bellies within the Genetic Distance of about 20 out of 67 markers with DYS393=12. They may be distinguished from close haplotypes of R-L21 who had the back mutation in DYS393 from 13 to 12 like that of O'Connor.
    They are also interesting because they link the Isles to Central Europe to Italy.

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