Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24

Thread: Determine Y line origin using Y Dna results

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,792
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M222

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    I have been able to determine the point of origin for my paternal line using Y-DNA. However, that's because my dad has a Big Y match with someone who has a pedigree going back to Maine Mór who lived in the 400s AD. The first to use the surname lived in the kingdom of Uí Maine which consisted of east Galway and south Roscommon. In my case, my dad's line didn't travel very far. Most of my dad's surname matches have their paternal ancestor in Galway or Roscommon. He has 47 Big Y, 23 Y-111 and 60 Y-67 matches.

    Also just to note that all but one (he's a genetic distance of 3) of my dad's Y-111 matches are at a genetic distance 6-10 but are all descended from a Kelly ancestor. One of the genetic distance 6 matches shares my dad's terminal SNP and my dad only has one private variant. They're thought to share an ancestor in the 1700s. One at a genetic distance of 10 shares an SNP with my dad just above my dad's terminal SNP. They're thought to share an ancestor in the 15/1600s.
    That's very interesting. In my case, most of my matches are Northern Irish or Americans who came from Northern Ireland, few trace back beyond 1700's, the Scots that I do match are part of a different haplogroup branch.

    Unfortunately there is no single common surname, it's all mixed.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 04-24-2021 at 10:46 PM.

  2. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    22
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Irish, Polish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-FT410160

    Ireland Munster Ireland Connacht Poland United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Has anyone ever been able to determine their point of origin for one line using Y-DNA? I would love to know where my in Scotland my paternal line comes from, however, most of my matches are at the 6-9 steps at the STR level, my Big Y matches both have a connection to Northern Ireland. And the matches are from all over Scotland.

    Is there any analysis I could perform to find this answer?
    It is definitely possible, but can be a bit complicated depending what else you have in mind. As an example I am currently certain that my Murphy ancestor, who would be shared among the modal cluster in the Murphy DNA project, would have carried the R-Z18138 SNP. It is possible that this SNP is from the time our Murphy family exploded out of Muskerry in the 13th Century. We are also downstream of R-Z255 and R-L159.1 which we share with the Wexford Murphys who cluster with the modal Cavanagh family and a large number of Kinsella men. These connections are from before the time surnames were adopted, it just happens that both ended up as Murphys. That being said it proves certain validity to aspects of the Irish Pedigrees, but not all. You can also fijd when a surname change may have happened, but this would require a difficult level of coordinating and research. I.e. We know Thomas Elijah Deaton 1679-1761 was a Murphy because the SNPs downstream of R-Z18136 and the Y DNA results of descendants of at least three of his sons! Interestingly enough I am friends with a Deaton who lived in another state as his neighbor moved up the road from me when I was in high school. Crazy how he turned out to be a Murphy!

    My 3rd cousin twice removed and I matched on 105/111 STR markers. His second great grandfather is my fourth great grandfather.


    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Murphy; 05-24-2021 at 09:08 PM.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Murphy For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (05-24-2021)

  4. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    22
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Irish, Polish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-FT410160

    Ireland Munster Ireland Connacht Poland United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    That's very interesting. In my case, most of my matches are Northern Irish or Americans who came from Northern Ireland, few trace back beyond 1700's, the Scots that I do match are part of a different haplogroup branch.

    Unfortunately there is no single common surname, it's all mixed.
    Part of having a mixed number of names could have a bit to do with a long tradition of migration among certain groups in the British Isles. Of course this is going to impact different people differently as there is different rates of migration among different groups. If you're matching Scotch Irish you're dealing with precisely that. Those folks were on the move several times within a few centuries. You might be able to gain an understanding of when those branches split off especially if, as you say, the Scots are part of a different branch. In a way they are still your kin, just from an earlier ancestor. Even when these people came to America they constantly moved from one area to another. The backwoods men.

  5. #14
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,675
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    LebaGermish
    Y-DNA (P)
    P312>DF19>DF88
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1e
    Y-DNA (M)
    J2a1 Z6065>Y7708>M47
    mtDNA (P)
    H1j

    United States of America Lebanon Germany United Kingdom Belgium Switzerland
    My MDKA on my Y-line is from about 1635 in a tiny town in the Taunus region of southern Hesse, Germany - Mattiaci territory in 70AD.

    My closest Big Y match has a different surname, but his ancestry goes back about as far (1675) to another German town in Hesse about 30km north (a 7 hour hike according to Google) and Big Y indicates our lines split off about 1000 years ago, give or take a few centuries.

    Our next closest Big Y matches are 3 from further north (around Koblenz, west of Berlin and in Noord-Holland), one from more south along the Rhine (whose ancestry is Jewish); also another guy in the DF19 group who hasn't done Big Y yet, but his STRs look like ours and his ancestry starts in the Saarland. Those matches all diverged around 1500 years ago, or during the Migration Period (~500AD).

    The town my Y-line comes from was supposed to have been founded by wandering Thuringian charcoalers in the 13th century. No idea if my line was part of that group, though.

    The Roman Limes was built across the Taunus. The Saalburg, a restored Roman castellum, now houses a museum.

    After the fall of the Limes (in 259/260 AD), the Alamanni settled in the range and for this reason there are some Alemannic cemeteries in the southern foothills of the Taunus (Eschborn). This area of the Taunus became part of the Frankish confederation of Germanic tribes after the Battle of Tolbiac around 500 AD.[4]
    Could be Franks, could be Thuringians (who got conquered by the Franks), could be Alamanni (also conquered by the Franks), Saxons (also conquered by Franks) or something completely different
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Dewsloth For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (05-25-2021)

  7. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,068
    Sex
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Ethnicity
    mixed European
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    Dad: R1b/L21/DF63
    mtDNA (M)
    K2b2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M269
    mtDNA (P)
    K2b1a1a

    United States of America England Wales Sweden Germany
    It's possible, but depends on your particular family situation and whether you have matches who test (and how far back you are interested in).

    My dad has a somewhat close match who tested, and if we can find the connection that will be informative for one or the other of us, as my dad's Y line goes back to the 1700s in Shropshire (and is one that is R1b but pretty rare when it comes to any closer matches -- his closest Big Ys other than this guy are in Spain and likely thousands of years apart), and the closest match told me his family was in Sussex "forever," but when I traced the research there's a deadend and unknown father in the early 1800s. Other matches would be helpful. There's one that could be useful (likely not as close as we are to each other, though) who hasn't tested sufficiently and is in AU, so knowing where his family was before they emigrated and how close he actually is could be useful. Also, new matches could always show up.

    I'm also personally interested in ancient remains, as that could help show when my dad's Y line went to Britain.

  8. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,792
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M222

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    Just looking again at some maps. As you are aware, my closest matches are Ferguson's.

    Clan Cumming and Clan Ferguson are beside each other on this map:
    https://www.origenesmaps.com/maps/cl...ories-scotland

    Clan Comyn had a castle at Dalswinton:
    https://www.origenesmaps.com/maps/castles-scotland

    Is it possible that my surname is not an NPE and that this is a very ancient link? It can't be a coincidence that Ferguson and Cumming are right beside each other on this map. I wonder if there are any Cumming in that area now?

  9. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,419
    Sex
    Location
    Ireland
    Ethnicity
    Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21>FGC6545>Y160102
    mtDNA (M)
    H6a1b2h
    mtDNA (P)
    H27e

    Ireland Ireland Connacht Ireland County Roscommon Ireland County Galway Ireland County Mayo
    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Just looking again at some maps. As you are aware, my closest matches are Ferguson's.

    Clan Cumming and Clan Ferguson are beside each other on this map:
    https://www.origenesmaps.com/maps/cl...ories-scotland

    Clan Comyn had a castle at Dalswinton:
    https://www.origenesmaps.com/maps/castles-scotland

    Is it possible that my surname is not an NPE and that this is a very ancient link? It can't be a coincidence that Ferguson and Cumming are right beside each other on this map. I wonder if there are any Cumming in that area now?
    That could also be used to provide an explanation for how the NPE could have occurred. The NPE could be going back to Scotland and occurred between two families who lived near each other.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

  10. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,792
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M222

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    That could also be used to provide an explanation for how the NPE could have occurred. The NPE could be going back to Scotland and occurred between two families who lived near each other.
    That's entirely possible. I do find it interesting how the two surnames are so close to each other. I wonder if there is any way to determine on who's side the NPE is on? As far as I can see there are no sw Scottish Cumming Y DNA testers on FTDNA.

    There may be a separate branch there.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 06-20-2021 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #19
    Registered Users
    Posts
    693
    Sex
    Location
    Texas
    Ethnicity
    English, Irish, German
    Nationality
    US
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21>L226>FGC5639

    England Germany Netherlands France Ireland Switzerland
    I am one the admins for Irish Type III (now R-L226) project. This is the third largest "predictable" haplogroup that is dominated by Irish testers. It has around 850 testers at Y67 or higher and 1,200 testers including Y37. We now believe that R-L226 originate somewhere in northwestern Europe but just two to four generations later were located in County Clare, Ireland where 95 % of the testers of L226 originate from. We have intentionally targeted testing of the branches just above L226 which originally had branch equivalents but has been reduced to nine branch equivalents. To our surprise, DC70 (one early branch that only has 1 % of L226 has almost no Irish surnames). Also, the testers in the branches just above L226 also have very little Irish content as well. We are very fortunate to descend from prolific royal line of King Brian Boru where his ancestry and geographies go back to around 500 AD which is around the same time as the R-L226 mutation. There are also many historical documents of King Brian Boru's royal ancestry that includes surnames that descend from his ancestors - which does track very well surnames of the ancestors of the L226 testers.

    We believe that our success in making the connection down to just one county in Ireland was made possible by several factors:

    1) With 850 testers. our sample size is large enough to get pretty good TMRCA dates and reveal several dozen genetic clusters of surnames.

    2) The TMRCA of R-L226 is on the very most recent range of predictable haplogroups (1,500 to 2,500 YBP). At 500 AD, it is much easier
    to find some genealogical evidence back to this time frame.

    3) Having the first major king of Ireland to unite the entire island of Ireland results in a lot of descendants that can be tested. It also,
    gives us access to early historical documents that have significant genealogical material that can be compared to the tester's earliest
    known well proven ancestors.

    4) We are also very fortunate to have support living descendants of King Brian Boru where titles have been passed down which required
    genealogical proof of direct descent from King Brian Boru for every generation since the titles have been held. The requirement of some
    of the royal titles require proof of direct male descendant from King Brian Boru. We now have 108 testers at Y67/Y111 which includes 52 Big Y
    testers. We now believe that DC782 is the YSNP branch that tracks King Brian Boru.

    5) We have some very active admins of R-L226 and the O'Brien projects as well as some very generous support from project members that
    have pushed the ball forward for targeted speculative testing. During the last four years, I have placed orders for around 50 testers using
    funds donated to the L226 project. The R-L226 YSNP was revealed with joint fund of the "Walk the Y" test and became the fourth
    YSNP branch under R-L21 (ignoring branches that have been removed later).

    6) Statistics has been very kind to R-L226. Until about one week ago, YSNP prediction of L226 was 100 % in accuracy. In the last week,
    we found one tester (under Z253 as well) that has a significant convergence with L226. We are currently investigating the validity of
    his YSNPs to determine if there is a lab error or one very exceptional example of convergence. Our signature includes a significant RecLOH
    mutation which affects 459, 464 and CDY markers. However, there is a severe lack of divergence under L226 as well. DC782 (the O'Brien
    surname cluster has just one Y67 mutation and one Y111 marker mutation over a 500 year period. One L226 tester has no mutations
    of any YSTRs in the last 1,500 years at Y67 (ignoring CDY) markers. He has over a 95 % false positive matches vs. the advertised
    5 % error rate (an extreme example).

  12. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to RobertCasey For This Useful Post:

     Dewsloth (06-20-2021),  hartaisarlag (06-21-2021),  msmarjoribanks (06-26-2021),  Nqp15hhu (06-20-2021)

  13. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, US
    Ethnicity
    NW European
    Nationality
    US
    mtDNA (M)
    U2e1d

    Maybe someone can help me. My husband's Y closest relatives show nobody with his same last name. We can trace him back to a man born about 1800 in Maryland. Several of the close relatives have a surname of a large family there, the Riddell family. Am I correct in guessing he's an illegitimate son of a Riddell? Or is that too big a stretch?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 07-01-2020, 02:05 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-14-2019, 10:11 PM
  3. Replies: 26
    Last Post: 02-16-2017, 02:10 AM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-08-2015, 04:51 PM
  5. Help identifying my paternal line's origin (Epperson)
    By Alpine Hominin in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-24-2013, 09:59 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •