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Thread: E-BY3880 vs Old Bavarians

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsian View Post
    i have seen even in Gobal G25 this remains have high autsomal farmer comparison from people Moldavian and ukrainians
    Attachment 46576
    He might be a Geto-Scythian, but we need more samples to get a better impression. The reason for the high EEF is not E-V13 though, but the generally stronger preservation in the Pannonian-Carpathian-Balkan zone of this ancestry before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    He might be a Geto-Scythian, but we need more samples to get a better impression. The reason for the high EEF is not E-V13 though, but the generally stronger preservation in the Pannonian-Carpathian-Balkan zone of this ancestry before.
    but why Steppe is become high comparison EEF in Balkans or i m wrong
    Last edited by capsian; 09-14-2021 at 08:55 PM.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsian View Post
    but why no Steppe is become high comparison EEF in Balkans or i m wrong
    The main reason was that in Pannonian-Carpathian-Balkan sphere Neolithic groups like Baden and GAC were stronger and fused with Western steppe people and Yamnaya, while Corded Ware and Bell Beakers had much less of an impact. So they got steppe admixture early on, but it stayed low, for two reasons: The local agro-pastoralists were stronger (Baden and GAC), plus the incoming steppe people were often more Yamnaya-pastoralists, with less of a demographic impact, and more of the local farmers did survive, probably in already socially stratified societies in the Balkans.

    There was even an up and down of steppe ancestry in parts of the region, especially Pannonia. Pastoralists coming in, agro-pastoralists fused with them or pushed back - next wave of pastoralists, next push-back and so on...

    My current best model goes like that: In one of these movements, a very Northern Lengyel-Sopot or Baden group got largely surrounded by Epi-Corded settlers and was largely assimilated between about 2.900-2.500 BC. From 2.500 BC on the surviving E-V13 operated from within the Epi-Corded cultural environment somewhere between Silesia-Carpathian Poland-Eastern Slovakia-North Western Romania probably. It participated in Unetice, while the more EEF shifted Pannonian-Balkan groups lived to the South and had, going by the available evidence so far, little to no E-V13 at all. After the break up of Unetice and when Urnfield began to develop, they became one of the dominant elements or the most dominant element in Pre-Gava around 1.700-1.400 BC. They became in any case dominant within the Southern Gava-Channelled Ware groups as they pushed down the Carpathians and Danube, in the LBA-EIA transition, between 1.300-1.000 BC. And they were the dominant element in Psenichevo-Basarabi, through which they influenced both Western and Eastern people, as well as Greeks. Western people, Illyrians-Pannonians and Celts, primarily through the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, Eastern Hallstatt and Thraco-/Geto-Scythians, with the latter having an impact on La Tene it seems.

    As for the exact genetic profile of the pre-Gava group which was E-V13 heavy, I don't know, but I would assume they were somewhere between Unetice and Pannonian EEF heavy groups positioned. Their contribution in many regions was male biased and the autosomal influence probably not as strong everywhere, even in regions where E-V13 rose above 75 percent. But all of that needs to be investigated.

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The main reason was that in Pannonian-Carpathian-Balkan sphere Neolithic groups like Baden and GAC were stronger and fused with Western steppe people and Yamnaya, while Corded Ware and Bell Beakers had much less of an impact. So they got steppe admixture early on, but it stayed low, for two reasons: The local agro-pastoralists were stronger (Baden and GAC), plus the incoming steppe people were often more Yamnaya-pastoralists, with less of a demographic impact, and more of the local farmers did survive, probably in already socially stratified societies in the Balkans.

    There was even an up and down of steppe ancestry in parts of the region, especially Pannonia. Pastoralists coming in, agro-pastoralists fused with them or pushed back - next wave of pastoralists, next push-back and so on...

    My current best model goes like that: In one of these movements, a very Northern Lengyel-Sopot or Baden group got largely surrounded by Epi-Corded settlers and was largely assimilated between about 2.900-2.500 BC. From 2.500 BC on the surviving E-V13 operated from within the Epi-Corded cultural environment somewhere between Silesia-Carpathian Poland-Eastern Slovakia-North Western Romania probably. It participated in Unetice, while the more EEF shifted Pannonian-Balkan groups lived to the South and had, going by the available evidence so far, little to no E-V13 at all. After the break up of Unetice and when Urnfield began to develop, they became one of the dominant elements or the most dominant element in Pre-Gava around 1.700-1.400 BC. They became in any case dominant within the Southern Gava-Channelled Ware groups as they pushed down the Carpathians and Danube, in the LBA-EIA transition, between 1.300-1.000 BC. And they were the dominant element in Psenichevo-Basarabi, through which they influenced both Western and Eastern people, as well as Greeks. Western people, Illyrians-Pannonians and Celts, primarily through the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, Eastern Hallstatt and Thraco-/Geto-Scythians, with the latter having an impact on La Tene it seems.

    As for the exact genetic profile of the pre-Gava group which was E-V13 heavy, I don't know, but I would assume they were somewhere between Unetice and Pannonian EEF heavy groups positioned. Their contribution in many regions was male biased and the autosomal influence probably not as strong everywhere, even in regions where E-V13 rose above 75 percent. But all of that needs to be investigated.
    We need more samples

  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsian View Post
    We need more samples
    Yes. The problem is though, that a lot of the people in question did cremate. Jordanow (Lengyel-derived) in Bohemia did oftentimes cremate, and the samples they retrieved in the latest Bohemian study, if they are Lengyel-derived to begin with, are almost all females. But we have the samples from Roman era Serbia and they are crystal clear: We know from the same region in the EBA-MBA: No E-V13. But in the Roman era, with those lineages being mostly local Iron Age inhabitants, they were packed with E-V13. What was in between and large enough to explain it? Its Belegis II-Gava/Channelled Ware. In the local archaeological project of the region, they too wrote about the major turnover in the LBA-EIA and the relative continuity from Basarabi on. There can be no doubt who brought it to Viminacium.
    But we don't know whether all Gava-Channelled Ware people were heavily E-V13. I'd say so, but we don't know for sure. Basarabi-Psenichevo is without doubt though, as are the Geto-Scythians in a Gava/Channelled Ware tradition. They all being linked through Channelled Ware.
    Pre-Gava has a strong local tradition in its core zone, South Eastern Poland, Eastern Slovakia, North Western Romania, Carpatho-Ukraine, that area. So in this region E-V13 survived the Corded Ware expansion, recovered, expanded first slowly and then rapidly with Gava-Channelled Ware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes. The problem is though, that a lot of the people in question did cremate. Jordanow (Lengyel-derived) in Bohemia did oftentimes cremate, and the samples they retrieved in the latest Bohemian study, if they are Lengyel-derived to begin with, are almost all females. But we have the samples from Roman era Serbia and they are crystal clear: We know from the same region in the EBA-MBA: No E-V13. But in the Roman era, with those lineages being mostly local Iron Age inhabitants, they were packed with E-V13. What was in between and large enough to explain it? Its Belegis II-Gava/Channelled Ware. In the local archaeological project of the region, they too wrote about the major turnover in the LBA-EIA and the relative continuity from Basarabi on. There can be no doubt who brought it to Viminacium.
    But we don't know whether all Gava-Channelled Ware people were heavily E-V13. I'd say so, but we don't know for sure. Basarabi-Psenichevo is without doubt though, as are the Geto-Scythians in a Gava/Channelled Ware tradition. They all being linked through Channelled Ware.
    Pre-Gava has a strong local tradition in its core zone, South Eastern Poland, Eastern Slovakia, North Western Romania, Carpatho-Ukraine, that area. So in this region E-V13 survived the Corded Ware expansion, recovered, expanded first slowly and then rapidly with Gava-Channelled Ware.
    thank for this informatoin so in your opinion haplogroup E-V13 after bottleneck is formed Carpathian Mountains and immigration to south
    but i this haplgroup PreE-V13 was widespread in Balkan

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  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsian View Post
    thank for this informatoin so in your opinion haplogroup E-V13 after bottleneck is formed Carpathian Mountains and immigration to south
    but i this haplgroup PreE-V13 was widespread in Balkan
    It most likely came with Impresso-Cardial early Neolithics. That's at least what the finds from Dalmatia and Iberia suggest.
    But later on they moved into more Northern regions, along the Danube (Northern Sopot-Lengyel) and the Rhine (Michelsberger).
    So already before the bottleneck, their centre had moved North, latest in the Middle Neolithic.
    It doesn’t look like they really dominated the Balkan at any point before the LBA.
    I guess the had a fairly big founder event with Lengyel already, but not as big as later and almost nothing survived from this first spread along the Danube and Rhine. But its clear from the ancient DNA that it happened.
    Interestingly, Basarabi-Hallstatt expanded the same way. The Danube is just the logical pathway in both directions. Same goes for Celts, Romans, Germanics and Slavs.
    The Balkan seems to have been rather a transit zone in the Neolithic than a centre for E-L618 on its way to E-V13. The new Southern Sopot samples suggest so as well.

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