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Thread: What other countries are genetically similar to those in the Balkans?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Are Northwest Italians closer to Provence and Eastern Spain (Balearics, Cataluna,etc) while Northeast Italians are closer to the Northern Balkans north of Albania and North Macedonia?
    Far from being an expert, I would say that looking at the samples we've got, and in particular looking at the averages, it would seem that geography match genetics in Italy, with the Northeastern samples plotting more east and Northwestern samples plotting more west.

    However... it depends on how we look at things. For example, what do we consider NW and what NE (e.g. Lombardy/Bergamo are to be considered NW or NE? I would generally assume that what was Ducato di Milano is NW and what was Repubblica di Venezia, including Brescia and Bergamo, is NE...).

    Also, the samples we have for some reason show Piedmont (the one I'd use to check NW Italy) plotting south of most other northern samples. I was also told that Veneto is oversampled in its valleys with the coastal area undersampled, hence may be a bit too north-shifted. I don't have information on the locations from which the individual samples come from so it is a bit of a struggle to really come to conclusions.

    To answer your question, the trouble is that the Iberian-French cluster and the Balkan cluster are not just on a West-East cline but more on a Northwest-Southeast cline, therefore you see Piedmont (which is less north-west shifted than Lombardy from what we've got) having a smaller genetic distance to Albania than Veneto does.

    Italian_Northeast is Friuli Venezia Giulia... and again here it would be interesting to know where the samples come from. The genetic distance from areas like Montenegro, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia (hence south-slav or quasi souths-slav) is lower than for the other regions. But this may be due to oversampling Trieste and Gorizia (where they already had a strong slovene minority but they also received after WW2 migration of Venetians/Italian speakers from Istria and Dalmazia).

    The Balkan cline goes very much east when going north due to slavic influence, more than the Italian cline, increasing the distance between the two clines (which are very close in the deep south-greek islands and get close again in the central italy-mainland greece/albania area). Therefore the genetic distance between slavic drifted populations and italian regions, exception made to Friuli-Venezia Giulia, may be higher than you would expect.

    Veneto has Albanian at 3.5% distance and Romania/Bulgaria 3.5%, Montenegro, Serbia 4.5%, because although they plot exactly on the same North-South axis Albania is much closer to Veneto on the West-East axis. The North-South axis however seem to prevale on the West-East cline when you see the distance between Veneto and Provence, Baleares and Catalunya samples (which come first, before Thessaly, Albania etc).

    This North-South vs West-East cline is quite clear looking at the Friuli Venezia Giulia sample, which plots closest compared to any other Italian sample to both Provence and Romania.

    So, I believe that it is quite complicated to answer and I am not sure we've got the right tools or amount of samples yet.
    I've avoided completely discussing Liguria (undersampled) and Valle d'Aosta/Trentino Alto Adige (outliers).
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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    Far from being an expert, I would say that looking at the samples we've got, and in particular looking at the averages, it would seem that geography match genetics in Italy, with the Northeastern samples plotting more east and Northwestern samples plotting more west.

    However... it depends on how we look at things. For example, what do we consider NW and what NE (e.g. Lombardy/Bergamo are to be considered NW or NE? I would generally assume that what was Ducato di Milano is NW and what was Repubblica di Venezia, including Brescia and Bergamo, is NE...).

    Also, the samples we have for some reason show Piedmont (the one I'd use to check NW Italy) plotting south of most other northern samples. I was also told that Veneto is oversampled in its valleys with the coastal area undersampled, hence may be a bit too north-shifted. I don't have information on the locations from which the individual samples come from so it is a bit of a struggle to really come to conclusions.

    To answer your question, the trouble is that the Iberian-French cluster and the Balkan cluster are not just on a West-East cline but more on a Northwest-Southeast cline, therefore you see Piedmont (which is less north-west shifted than Lombardy from what we've got) having a smaller genetic distance to Albania than Veneto does.

    Italian_Northeast is Friuli Venezia Giulia... and again here it would be interesting to know where the samples come from. The genetic distance from areas like Montenegro, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia (hence south-slav or quasi souths-slav) is lower than for the other regions. But this may be due to oversampling Trieste and Gorizia (where they already had a strong slovene minority but they also received after WW2 migration of Venetians/Italian speakers from Istria and Dalmazia).

    The Balkan cline goes very much east when going north due to slavic influence, more than the Italian cline, increasing the distance between the two clines (which are very close in the deep south-greek islands and get close again in the central italy-mainland greece/albania area). Therefore the genetic distance between slavic drifted populations and italian regions, exception made to Friuli-Venezia Giulia, may be higher than you would expect.

    Veneto has Albanian at 3.5% distance and Romania/Bulgaria 3.5%, Montenegro, Serbia 4.5%, because although they plot exactly on the same North-South axis Albania is much closer to Veneto on the West-East axis. The North-South axis however seem to prevale on the West-East cline when you see the distance between Veneto and Provence, Baleares and Catalunya samples (which come first, before Thessaly, Albania etc).

    This North-South vs West-East cline is quite clear looking at the Friuli Venezia Giulia sample, which plots closest compared to any other Italian sample to both Provence and Romania.

    So, I believe that it is quite complicated to answer and I am not sure we've got the right tools or amount of samples yet.
    I've avoided completely discussing Liguria (undersampled) and Valle d'Aosta/Trentino Alto Adige (outliers).
    ive read this now a few times that the G25 'Trentino Alto Adige' are smth. outlier
    per paper the TRE samples are from the italian spaeking part of south tyrol whilst the german speaking part of south tyrol is abbr. ALT and that only concerns the mother of sample 4000066

    looking at their fineSTRUCTURE analysis (FMD >210k SNPs) the TRE samples 5/9 constitute a cluster (NItaly6) with 32/73 Venetans and 16/18 Friulians whilst the other four are two each in other Nitaly clusters 5 and 3 in contrast the french-speaking Aostians indeed constitute their own cluster not with any other italians and whilst the TRE samples are not feat. in their Fst analysis their close asscoiates FRI and VEN have a distance of 0,000454 (see dist. Aosta 0,0021-25 and 0,0017-21 resp.)

    edits: the Fst distance for the Nitaly6 (TRE/FRI/VEN northeast) cluster is mean 0,0021
    lowest distance than all other clusters incl. Aostia and Sardinians

    all looks like the northeast are not at all (or shouldnt be) outliers to another but indeed a common genepool
    Last edited by alexfritz; 05-08-2021 at 12:07 AM.
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    ive read this now a few times that the G25 'Trentino Alto Adige' are smth. outlier
    per paper the TRE samples are from the italian spaeking part of south tyrol whilst the german speaking part of south tyrol is abbr. ALT and that only concerns the mother of sample 4000066

    looking at their fineSTRUCTURE analysis (FMD >210k SNPs) the TRE samples 5/9 constitute a cluster (NItaly6) with 32/73 Venetans and 16/18 Friulians whilst the other four are two each in other Nitaly clusters 5 and 3 in contrast the french-speaking Aostians indeed constitute their own cluster not with any other italians and whilst the TRE samples are not feat. in their Fst analysis their close asscoiates FRI and VEN have a distance of 0,000454 (see dist. Aosta 0,0021-25 and 0,0017-21 resp.)

    looks like the northeast groups are not at all (or shouldnt be) outliers to another
    Cool. I don't know where the samples come from. Actually if you have more info on each of them (for example if you can confirm where the veneto samples come from and northeast as well) I'd truly appreciate it
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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    Cool. I don't know where the samples come from. Actually if you have more info on each of them (for example if you can confirm where the veneto samples come from and northeast as well) I'd truly appreciate it
    no problem
    its called raven et al from 2018
    the _P stands for Parents Info the _G for Great Parents info the _B for Sample Info (?) and the _U for No Info (mixed parents are _F-_M resp.) the Fst analysis was based on Veneto _P and Friuli _G samples; from which area(s) in said regions the samples are from i dont know (i think) not mentions of that

    for G25 their ought to be a spreadsheet that details which samples in the avgs. by ID though i havent seen it myself
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    no problem
    its called raven et al from 2018
    the _P stands for Parents Info the _G for Great Parents info the _B for Sample Info (?) and the _U for No Info (mixed parents are _F-_M resp.) the Fst analysis was based on Veneto _P and Friuli _G samples; from which area(s) in said regions the samples are from i dont know (i think) not mentions of that

    for G25 their ought to be a spreadsheet that details which samples in the avgs. by ID though i havent seen it myself
    Do you mean Raveane et al paper from 2019 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492)?
    I will try to reconcile with the individual sample, although I don't remember much information on the locations from which the samples were taken (meaning towns or at least provinces)
    Last edited by Northern Adriatic; 05-08-2021 at 08:35 AM.
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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    Do you mean Raveane et al paper from 2019 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492)?
    I will try to reconcile with the individual sample, although I don't remember much information on the locations from which the samples were taken (meaning towns or at least provinces)

    that is the one
    not sure if you got the PM but you need to check out the supp
    they dont go by towns or provinces they go by regions and then fineSTRUCTURE sorts them out into clusters based on their DNA so check out the clusters and youll know which samples / which regions constitute a common genepool

    concenring again #42 the samples Trentino-Alto-Adige
    TRE is Trentino (italian speaking) and ALT is Alto-Adige (german speaking) and the latter indeed just concerns the mother of 4000066* while all others the former and that would ofc also apply to those on G25; one is indeed an outlier ALP414 in cluster EEurope5 (mostly Hungarian, Croatian ...) but im willing to bet thats the sample Trentino-Alto-Adige_o on G25 already seperated from Trentino-Alto-Adige

    *and 4000066 is LOM-ALT Nitaly5 not even TRE
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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