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Thread: What other countries are genetically similar to those in the Balkans?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    There are 2 different clusters genetically

    Greek-like: Greece, Albania, North Macedonia
    South Slavic-like: Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegria, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Slovenia
    North Macedonia although is a small country, shows two distinct profiles. One, which clusters similarly to Southern Serbs and Western Bulgarians and some Romanians(this cluster is mainly concentrated in the northern parts of the country) and the other which is intermediate between the first one and the Greek-Albanian cluster.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    There are 2 different clusters genetically

    Greek-like: Greece, Albania, North Macedonia
    South Slavic-like: Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegria, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Slovenia
    I think Bulgaria should be in Greek-like cluster, because Bulgarians are basically almost identical to Macedonians. There are even some South Bulgarians who are completely Thracian Greek-like

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    North Macedonia although is a small country, shows two distinct profiles. One, which clusters similarly to Southern Serbs and Western Bulgarians and some Romanians(this cluster is mainly concentrated in the northern parts of the country) and the other which is intermediate between the first one and the Greek-Albanian cluster.
    I'm speaking about ethnic North Macedonians, because in Moldova and Romania we also have Ukrainians or Gypsies, who show different profiles. User JohnnyP from North Macedonia on another forum demonstrated with his almost 200 samples from Macedonia, that ethnic Macedonians are most similar to Albanians and Greeks. He explained that those in big cities are often mixed with other Yugoslavs and that's very obvious from surnames ending in "-ic". He doesn't count them as ethnic Macedonians.
    Last edited by Dorkymon; 04-29-2021 at 01:08 PM.
    Recent ancestry: 2/4 Central Moldova (Orhei district), 1/4 Southern Moldova (Cahul district), 1/4 Northern Moldova (Briceni district)
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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    There are 2 different clusters genetically

    Greek-like: Greece, Albania, North Macedonia
    South Slavic-like: Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegria, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Slovenia
    I don't know if it is correct or not, but when I was playing a bit with PAST4 the clustering was a bit different.
    Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia were always in another cluster (light green in the image) compared to the other Balkans (brown-ish).
    Then of course I guess it depends on how many ref populations you add too etc, but generally speaking in the Balkans I see a cline similar to the cline that you see in the Italian peninsula, where is always difficult to cluster the extremes (north or south) or the countries in the middle.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....855#post764855
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    I don't know if it is correct or not, but when I was playing a bit with PAST4 the clustering was a bit different.
    Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia were always in another cluster (light green in the image) compared to the other Balkans (brown-ish).
    Then of course I guess it depends on how many ref populations you add too etc, but generally speaking in the Balkans I see a cline similar to the cline that you see in the Italian peninsula, where is always difficult to cluster the extremes (north or south) or the countries in the middle.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....855#post764855
    In general they have some Germanic ancestry that pulls them towards Central Europe, but on an individual level there are plenty who fit the South Slavic cluster.
    Recent ancestry: 2/4 Central Moldova (Orhei district), 1/4 Southern Moldova (Cahul district), 1/4 Northern Moldova (Briceni district)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    In general they have some Germanic ancestry that pulls them towards Central Europe, but on an individual level there are plenty who fit the South Slavic cluster.
    Sure, and I am not expert. I just think that peninsulas are generally more about clines than pure clusters. Iberia is probably the exception.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    In general they have some Germanic ancestry that pulls them towards Central Europe, but on an individual level there are plenty who fit the South Slavic cluster.
    On the individual level they vary a lot indeed, from pretty much German, to quite Slavic, to more Balkan. In Hungary a lot depends on the region, because in some regions there was more, in others less to no recent German or Slavic settlement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by excine View Post
    I'd say Italy is probably the most similar to the Balkans, I'm no expert though.

    I didn’t want to make a new thread so I will ask here. Would you happen to know what countries Central Italy is genetically similar to? Specially Tuscany region. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by HBA39 View Post
    I didn’t want to make a new thread so I will ask here. Would you happen to know what countries Central Italy is genetically similar to? Specially Tuscany region. Thanks
    If you exclude Corsica (heavily linked to Tuscany, historically and genetically) similarly to most of Central Italy the answer is Mainland Greece, Albania, Northern Macedonia.

    However Tuscany is a bit more western (and also northern) than the rest of central Italy, you will see more distance from east-med and closer distance for Spanish regions (especially Baleares) and Provence.

    Distances of Tuscany vs Central Italy average and other regions (Umbria, Marche, Lazio and I included also Abruzzo which is definitely more Southern just to give you reference).

    Top 15 excluding Swiss Italian and French Corsica (genetically Italians).

     
    Distance to: Italian_Tuscany
    0.02111263 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02764228 Albanian
    0.02833067 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02978842 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03139429 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03314769 Rumelia_East
    0.03353918 Greek_Izmir
    0.03359404 Greek_Laconia
    0.03694992 Macedonian:Central
    0.03996656 Macedonian:Southeast
    0.04009828 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.04025311 Spanish_Menorca
    0.04068794 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.04103561 Spanish_Baleares
    0.04134508 Macedonianelagonia1


    Distance to: Italian:Center
    0.02090759 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02371881 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02624125 Greek_Izmir
    0.02710583 Greek_Laconia
    0.02963014 Albanian
    0.03063145 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03152694 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03326188 Rumelia_East
    0.03626228 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03727630 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03763605 Maltese
    0.03772793 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03876424 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03998309 Macedonian:Central
    0.04009673 Ashkenazi_Lithuania


    Distance to: Italian_Umbria
    0.02229918 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02534207 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02562324 Greek_Izmir
    0.02756847 Greek_Laconia
    0.03123173 Albanian
    0.03159177 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03336586 Rumelia_East
    0.03355106 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03573182 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03741181 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03791238 Maltese
    0.03791992 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03916114 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03955707 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.04032571 Greek_Crete


    Distance to: Italian_Marche
    0.01963543 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02266803 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02553212 Greek_Izmir
    0.02686020 Greek_Laconia
    0.02928925 Albanian
    0.02955812 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03029279 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03300140 Rumelia_East
    0.03486813 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03493749 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03572757 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03652491 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03733736 Maltese
    0.03852599 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03866308 Greek_Crete


    Distance to: Italian_Lazio
    0.02534850 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02592297 Greek_Izmir
    0.02607219 Greek_Laconia
    0.02776451 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03303546 Maltese
    0.03391833 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03480545 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03536290 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03557118 Albanian
    0.03606945 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03622770 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03662975 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03670405 Greek_Crete
    0.03761820 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03840797 Rumelia_East


    Distance to: Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01699940 Greek_Izmir
    0.02212485 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02340130 Greek_Laconia
    0.02486484 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02566453 Greek_Crete
    0.02633506 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02665328 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02668317 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02717455 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02786344 Maltese
    0.02853369 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03134339 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03461125 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03516889 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03520665 Albanian


    Then of course here we are using the available samples. Tuscany is also a region where you could see some differences according to which area you are discussing. Massa-Carrara is basically Northern Italian and not really Tuscan. Lucca is distinctive and also has a bit of northern shift. Siena may be a different story (perhaps closer to Umbria). Livorno would give me a lot of curiosity being a port I would expect it to be maybe more diverse. Keep in mind that the history of Italy is a history of city-states and small duchies (especially in the Centro-Nord) and although Tuscany has been unified for quite some time (exception made for Massa-Carrara e Lucca), Siena and Firenze had a different history.
    Last edited by Northern Adriatic; 05-06-2021 at 03:19 PM.
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    If you exclude Corsica (heavily linked to Tuscany, historically and genetically) similarly to most of Central Italy the answer is Mainland Greece, Albania, Northern Macedonia.

    However Tuscany is a bit more western (and also northern) than the rest of central Italy, you will see more distance from east-med and closer distance for Spanish regions (especially Baleares) and Provence.

    Distances of Tuscany vs Central Italy average and other regions (Umbria, Marche, Lazio and I included also Abruzzo which is definitely more Southern just to give you reference).

    Top 15 excluding Swiss Italian and French Corsica (genetically Italians).

     
    Distance to: Italian_Tuscany
    0.02111263 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02764228 Albanian
    0.02833067 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02978842 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03139429 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03314769 Rumelia_East
    0.03353918 Greek_Izmir
    0.03359404 Greek_Laconia
    0.03694992 Macedonian:Central
    0.03996656 Macedonian:Southeast
    0.04009828 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.04025311 Spanish_Menorca
    0.04068794 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.04103561 Spanish_Baleares
    0.04134508 Macedonianelagonia1


    Distance to: Italian:Center
    0.02090759 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02371881 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02624125 Greek_Izmir
    0.02710583 Greek_Laconia
    0.02963014 Albanian
    0.03063145 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03152694 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03326188 Rumelia_East
    0.03626228 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03727630 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03763605 Maltese
    0.03772793 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03876424 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03998309 Macedonian:Central
    0.04009673 Ashkenazi_Lithuania


    Distance to: Italian_Umbria
    0.02229918 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02534207 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02562324 Greek_Izmir
    0.02756847 Greek_Laconia
    0.03123173 Albanian
    0.03159177 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03336586 Rumelia_East
    0.03355106 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03573182 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03741181 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03791238 Maltese
    0.03791992 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03916114 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03955707 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.04032571 Greek_Crete


    Distance to: Italian_Marche
    0.01963543 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02266803 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02553212 Greek_Izmir
    0.02686020 Greek_Laconia
    0.02928925 Albanian
    0.02955812 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03029279 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03300140 Rumelia_East
    0.03486813 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03493749 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03572757 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03652491 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03733736 Maltese
    0.03852599 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03866308 Greek_Crete


    Distance to: Italian_Lazio
    0.02534850 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02592297 Greek_Izmir
    0.02607219 Greek_Laconia
    0.02776451 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03303546 Maltese
    0.03391833 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03480545 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03536290 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03557118 Albanian
    0.03606945 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03622770 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.03662975 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03670405 Greek_Crete
    0.03761820 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03840797 Rumelia_East


    Distance to: Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01699940 Greek_Izmir
    0.02212485 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02340130 Greek_Laconia
    0.02486484 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02566453 Greek_Crete
    0.02633506 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02665328 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02668317 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02717455 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02786344 Maltese
    0.02853369 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03134339 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03461125 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03516889 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03520665 Albanian


    Then of course here we are using the available samples. Tuscany is also a region where you could see some differences according to which area you are discussing. Massa-Carrara is basically Northern Italian and not really Tuscan. Lucca is distinctive and also has a bit of northern shift. Siena may be a different story (perhaps closer to Umbria). Livorno would give me a lot of curiosity being a port I would expect it to be maybe more diverse. Keep in mind that the history of Italy is a history of city-states and small duchies (especially in the Centro-Nord) and although Tuscany has been unified for quite some time (exception made for Massa-Carrara e Lucca), Siena and Firenze had a different history.
    Are Northwest Italians closer to Provence and Eastern Spain (Balearics, Cataluna,etc) while Northeast Italians are closer to the Northern Balkans north of Albania and North Macedonia?

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