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Thread: Y-DNA of the Greek islands - post the averages of your region

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA of the Greek islands - post the averages of your region

    I think it is high time for users with origins from the islands (Cyclades, Dodecanese, North and South Aegean, Ionian) to post the Y-DNA frequencies of their DNA relatives. It is best that we use a single naming convention - I used the Yfull system, not the 23andme one.

    Using the aggregate data from the 23andme account of a friend with partial ancestry from Kalymnos, I provide the following frequencies for that island:

    Kalymnos (based on 52 matches):

    E (5.7%):

    E-V13
    E-M78
    E-L677

    G (19.2%):

    G-CTS11562 x7
    G-PF3345
    G-M342 x2

    J2a (34.6%):

    J2a-M319 x2
    J2a-L25 x3
    J2a-L26
    J2a-M67 x4
    J2a-L70 x6
    J2a-L24
    J2a-M92

    J2b (3.8%):

    J2b-M12
    J2b-M241

    J1 (13.4%):

    J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
    J1-Z2215 x5


    I2 (3.8%):

    I2a-M223
    I2a-S12195

    I1 (3.8%):

    I1-M253
    I1-M227

    R1b (9.6%):

    R1b-BY250
    R1b-Z2108
    R1b-P297
    R1b-L23 x2

    R1a (9.6%):

    R1a-Z93 x4
    R1a-M417


    It will be interesting to see how these percentages will change when more people add their matches. However, it is clear that J2a and G are the dominant haplogroups, which, unsurprisingly, are the sole haplogroups we have from ancient samples from what is now Greece.

    What is very important is that most of the R1a is R1a-Z93, which, based on other AG posts, seem to be present in Koans and Rhodians as well, and could be part of the Y-DNA package of the proto-Greeks, especially if they are from a Sintashta-like source (which seems to be the case). We really need an island Greek with R1a-Z93 to test using FTDNA Big Y or WGS!

    Most (all?) of the R1b seems to me to be of recent foreign origin, which may confirm the point I made above regarding R1a-Z93 and the proto-Greeks.

    Islanders, please post the results of your island(s)!
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  3. #2
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    This is a good topic. This is mostly a 23andMe feature though isn't it? I can see a few self reported listings on GEDmatch, but I can't be sure where the parental line traces to since so many don't have family trees.
    Last edited by Greekscholar; 04-28-2021 at 08:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    This is a good topic. This is mostly a 23andMe feature though isn't it? I can see a few self reported listings on GEDmatch, but I can't be sure where the parental line traces too since so many don't have family trees.
    Yes, I'm afraid it is limited to 23andme, as Ancestry does not provide haplogroup info (unless one downloads their data and uses a Y-chromosome calculator).
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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    Teach me how
     
    G25 Modern
    Distance: 1.4201% / 0.01420105
    Target: Markos_scaled
    41.5 Greek_Peloponnese
    39.5 Greek_Crete
    10.0 Roma_Barcelona
    9.0 Greek_Thessaly

    Eurogenes K13
    Distance: 1.6597% / 1.65965243
    Target: Markos | ADC: 0.25x RC
    50.0 Greek_West
    30.6 Greek_Andros
    10.6 Greek_Crete
    8.8 Roma_Greece


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    Quote Originally Posted by Markos View Post
    Teach me how
    Took me an hour and a half to prepare the above list, so if you are not in confinement like me, it might take you some more time.

    You simply need to download your aggregate data - its an Excel file. You open the Excel file, and you examine your Samian matches one by one, checking their 23andme profiles to make sure that their Y-DNA is Samian (as many might be islanders from their mother's side), and you record their Y haplogroup.

    To download your aggregate data, go to "View all DNA relatives", and at the bottom of the page you click on "Download aggregate data".
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    I think it is high time for users with origins from the islands (Cyclades, Dodecanese, North and South Aegean, Ionian) to post the Y-DNA frequencies of their DNA relatives. It is best that we use a single naming convention - I used the Yfull system, not the 23andme one.

    Using the aggregate data from the 23andme account of a friend with partial ancestry from Kalymnos, I provide the following frequencies for that island:

    Kalymnos (based on 52 matches):

    E (5.7%):

    E-V13
    E-M78
    E-L677

    G (19.2%):

    G-CTS11562 x7
    G-PF3345
    G-M342 x2

    J2a (34.6%):

    J2a-M319 x2
    J2a-L25 x3
    J2a-L26
    J2a-M67 x4
    J2a-L70 x6
    J2a-L24
    J2a-M92

    J2b (3.8%):

    J2b-M12
    J2b-M241

    J1 (13.4%):

    J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
    J1-Z2215 x5


    I2 (3.8%):

    I2a-M223
    I2a-S12195

    I1 (3.8%):

    I1-M253
    I1-M227

    R1b (9.6%):

    R1b-BY250
    R1b-Z2108
    R1b-P297
    R1b-L23 x2

    R1a (9.6%):

    R1a-Z93 x4
    R1a-M417


    It will be interesting to see how these percentages will change when more people add their matches. However, it is clear that J2a and G are the dominant haplogroups, which, unsurprisingly, are the sole haplogroups we have from ancient samples from what is now Greece.

    What is very important is that most of the R1a is R1a-Z93, which, based on other AG posts, seem to be present in Koans and Rhodians as well, and could be part of the Y-DNA package of the proto-Greeks, especially if they are from a Sintashta-like source (which seems to be the case). We really need an island Greek with R1a-Z93 to test using FTDNA Big Y or WGS!

    Most (all?) of the R1b seems to me to be of recent foreign origin, which may confirm the point I made above regarding R1a-Z93 and the proto-Greeks.

    Islanders, please post the results of your island(s)!
    R1b-Z2103 was the most frequently appearing haplogroup by a small margin in the EBA sample of Serbia. I guess it depends what you mean by recent or foreign. I'd argue that Bronze Age is old enough to no longer be considered foreign Was R1b-Z2103 present in Greece during the Greek Neolithic or Anatolian Neolithic? Absolutely not based on what we've seen to date.

    The challenge with regions like Greece or even Greek islands that have many different haplogroups, is that you need a massive sample to really paint a better example. In your case, is E-V13 really as low as 5.7% or is it due to low sampling? (54 is really too small to tell)
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    P.S. Cypriots, as another branch of Greek islanders are obviously welcome!
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    R1b-Z2103 was the most frequently appearing haplogroup by a small margin in the EBA sample of Serbia. I guess it depends what you mean by recent or foreign. I'd argue that Bronze Age is old enough to no longer be considered foreign Was R1b-Z2103 present in Greece during the Greek Neolithic or Anatolian Neolithic? Absolutely not based on what we've seen to date.

    The challenge with regions like Greece or even Greek islands that have many different haplogroups, is that you need a massive sample to really paint a better example. In your case, is E-V13 really as low as 5.7% or is it due to low sampling? (54 is really too small to tell)
    It seems to me that the vast majority of Greek R1b-Z2103 will be shown to be of foreign origin, primarily Albanian, as well as Vlach, Armenian etc. Some Pontic Greeks have Z2013, but we cannot be sure without further testing whether they represent ancient Greek admixture.

    Linguistic evidence suggests that Greco-Phrygian entered Greece from what is now Epirus/Southern Albania, so Serbia may not be relevant here. If the proto-Greeks were an offshoot of a Sintashta/Catacomb-like people, then R1a-Z93 would be the haplogroup we would expect them to carry. The presence of this line in Greek islanders, who were less affected by the Slavic invasions, could theoretically stem from the proto-Greeks. I have a match from Corfu who also carries this line.

    If proto-Greeks were R1b-Z2103, then it appears that their variant has disappeared, either in ancient or post-Slavic times.

    Regarding haplogroup E, it is generally very low on the islands, and usually it is NOT of the E-V13 variety found in the mainland.
    Last edited by XXD; 04-28-2021 at 09:04 PM.
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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    These j2a and G2a lineages needs deeper testing as well. We don't know what branches exactly ancient Greeks belonged to. Some of these lineages can easily be from west asia(Anatolia, Levant, Caucasus, Mesopotamia etc) witch is very likely if we take serious the autosomal of Greek islanders. We need more samples from bronze age/Iron age Greece to have a clear view. It is very likely that the vast majority of bronze age Greeks were prolly a combination of J2a-G2a folks. And these J2a lineages arrived from Eastern Anatolia(via Kura-Araxes culture) this seems to be the most likely senario bringing with them CHG/Iran N input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    R1b-Z2103 was the most frequently appearing haplogroup by a small margin in the EBA sample of Serbia. I guess it depends what you mean by recent or foreign. I'd argue that Bronze Age is old enough to no longer be considered foreign Was R1b-Z2103 present in Greece during the Greek Neolithic or Anatolian Neolithic? Absolutely not based on what we've seen to date.

    The challenge with regions like Greece or even Greek islands that have many different haplogroups, is that you need a massive sample to really paint a better example. In your case, is E-V13 really as low as 5.7% or is it due to low sampling? (54 is really too small to tell)
    The R1b individuals in Mokrin didn't have any grave goods and had died young, which is indicative of them being low status.

    The problem about Z2103 in Greece is that it can have multiple sources from 3 or more directions at various timeframes. Since there is early prescence of M269 (according to Lazaridis at least?) in Bulgaria, possible early prescence of R-PF7562 in Albania etc, not everything is recent.

    The problem of R1b as a whole is that there was a period of a so called 'Frankokratia' or 'Latinokratia' in Greek history. So, some western subclades arrived late, although in my opinion some movements from around North Italy around and after the BA collapse are also possible.

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