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Thread: Y-DNA of the Greek islands - post the averages of your region

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    .

    Regarding haplogroup E, it is generally very low on the islands, and usually it is NOT of the E-V13 variety found in the mainland.
    In Heraclides 2017, 34 samples out of 344, or 9.9% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
    In Voskarides 2016, 46 samples out of 631 or 7.3% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
    Combined, there are 80 samples out of 975 Greek Cypriots, or 8.2% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13, and 975 samples are fairly representative sample size.

    Sources:
    Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements
    Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots

    In King 2008, in a sample of 193 people from Crete, there is 6.7% E-V13. This is not the best sample size however the percentage of E-V13 is not hugely different than Cyprus, only 1.5% less.

    In some other non-islander Greek but very similar populations such as Sicilians and South Italians, the percentage of E-V13 is very similar to Cyprus and Crete.
    In Boattini 2013, there is 10.6% of South Italians belonging to E-V13 and 7.6% of the Sicilians respectively.

    So overall, E-V13 is found between 6.7% and 8.2% in Crete and Greek Cypriots respectively and I don't believe that the other Greek isles closer to the mainland will have less E-V13 than what Cypriots and Cretans have. In fact we should expect the percentage of E-V13 to increase as we get closer to the mainland. Yes, J2a is the largest haplogroup in the islands but we can't compare percentage of haplogroup such as J2a which is lot older than E-V13. If we are to breakdown Cretan J2a haplogroup to smaller subclades then the largest subclade is J-M319, at 8.8%, which is still lot older than E-V13(TMRCA=4900 ybp), with TMRCA of 11200 ybp according to YFULL. J-M67 with a TMRCA of 12000 ybp is the third largest at 5.5%. This indicates that J2a is quite old and diverse in this region and probably connected with the older, pre-Greek peoples of the isles. On the other hand, we have to find out more about R-M269 in Cretans, which stands at 17%, and what subclades can be further broken down to, as well as the Cretan R1a-M198 which stands at 8.2%. These are the only haplogroups that have a bigger impact in Crete than E-V13, which can be TMRCA wise comparable with E-V13.

    Edit: Just to add, E-V13 is the largest E haplogroup in Crete as well as in the other islands. Only in Cyprus E-M123 appears larger than E-V13, at 11.2%, combined Voskarides and Heraklides samples together!
    Last edited by Aspar; 04-29-2021 at 12:36 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    The question is whether or not their 'Italian-like' admixture is from actual Italians or not. As clearly Ioanian islands as a whole do not score totally like mainland Greeks on any commercial site or admixture test. Maybe Corfu could be an exception here, but all the rest show a pull towards Italy and West Asia compared to the mainland.

    About this topic though, I don't think the Y-DNA results are particularly enlightening unless the genealogy of each person is well filtered to make sure only people who's paternal line has a long presence are included in the statistics.

    I can tell you now that E-V13 is absent in Kalymnos apart from a small number of recent migrants. As for other Dodecanese islands, I cannot safely say. But I will say that I have a few E-V13 matches from Symi and their paternal lines are confirmed to be native there for many generations. And them scoring almost 0% Greek & Balkan is a good indication it's not due to a recent mainland ancestor.

    As for which clades Proto-Greeks carried, I don't think studying the modern population of Greece is particularly useful for this subject. Ancient DNA is the most important. Although if the modern route is insisted, perhaps Northern Tsakonians who were quite differentiated even from Maniots would be much more representative than the average modern Greek.

    Worth of investigation possibly is subclade I-S12195. It was found in one Yamnaya individual and also exists in quite a few of my relative matches from Greece, even those outside of Kalymnos. According to Soreclow's stats, it also had a high frequency in certain a certain area of the Peloponnese. Although it seems relatively quite rare overall so it probably was a minor clade anyways. So perhaps not worthy of investigation after all.
    I agree with the most you mention. But I do not have seen enough samples/kits from Eptanisa yet.... So I cannot say that I have an opinion about their genetics. If you have gedmatch kits feel free to share them.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    In Heraclides 2017, 34 samples out of 344, or 9.9% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
    In Voskarides 2016, 46 samples out of 631 or 7.3% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
    Combined, there are 80 samples out of 975 Greek Cypriots, or 8.2% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13, and 975 samples are fairly representative sample size.

    Sources:
    Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements
    Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots

    In King 2008, in a sample of 193 people from Crete, there is 6.7% E-V13. This is not the best sample size however the percentage of E-V13 is not hugely different than Cyprus, only 1.5% less.

    In some other non-islander Greek but very similar populations such as Sicilians and South Italians, the percentage of E-V13 is very similar to Cyprus and Crete.
    In Boattini 2013, there is 10.6% of South Italians belonging to E-V13 and 7.6% of the Sicilians respectively.

    So overall, E-V13 is found between 6.7% and 8.2% in Crete and Greek Cypriots respectively and I don't believe that the other Greek isles closer to the mainland will have less E-V13 than what Cypriots and Cretans have. In fact we should expect the percentage of E-V13 to increase as we get closer to the mainland. Yes, J2a is the largest haplogroup in the islands but we can't compare percentage of haplogroup such as J2a which is lot older than E-V13. If we are to breakdown Cretan J2a haplogroup to smaller subclades then the largest subclade is J-M319, at 8.8%, which is still lot older than E-V13(TMRCA=4900 ybp), with TMRCA of 11200 ybp according to YFULL. J-M67 with a TMRCA of 12000 ybp is the third largest at 5.5%. This indicates that J2a is quite old and diverse in this region and probably connected with the older, pre-Greek peoples of the isles. On the other hand, we have to find out more about R-M269 in Cretans, which stands at 17%, and what subclades can be further broken down to, as well as the Cretan R1a-M198 which stands at 8.2%. These are the only haplogroups that have a bigger impact in Crete than E-V13, which can be TMRCA wise comparable with E-V13.

    Edit: Just to add, E-V13 is the largest E haplogroup in Crete as well as in the other islands. Only in Cyprus E-M123 appears larger than E-V13, at 11.2%, combined Voskarides and Heraklides samples together!
    Thank you for this excellent post!
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  6. #24
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    So here is an updated list of the Y-DNA of Kalymnos, based on 23abc's and my friend's matches combined (hopefully without many duplicates). We both used unique surnames:

    Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):


    E (3.5%):


    E-V13
    E-M78
    E-L677
    E-L791

    G (25.6%):

    G-CTS11562 x26
    G-PF3345
    G-M342 x2

    I2 (8.8%):

    I2a-M223 x3
    I2a-S12195 x5
    I2a-CTS10228
    I2a-L699

    I1 (1.7%)

    I1-M253
    I1-M227

    J2a (27.4%):

    J2a-M319 x2
    J2a-L25 x3
    J2a-L26 x2
    J2a-M67 x7
    J2a-L70 x14
    J2a-L24
    J2a-M92
    J2a-M172

    J2b (2.6%)

    J2b-M12
    J2b-M241
    J2b-L83

    J1 (10.6%):

    J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
    J1-Z2215 x8
    J1-M267 x2

    R1a (9.7%):

    R1a-Z93 x6
    R1a-M417 x4
    R1a-CTS3402

    R1b (9.7%):

    R1b-BY250
    R1b-Z2108
    R1b-P297 x3
    R1b-L23 x4
    R1b-U152
    R1b-M67


    Here is Crete (based on 68 matches of mine, 23abc's and peloponnesian's):

    Crete

    E (14.7%):

    E-M78 x2
    E-M123 x3
    E-M183
    E-V13 x3

    G (2.9%):

    G-Z30503
    G-Z17887

    I2a (5.8%):

    I2a-M438 x2
    I2a-S17250 x2

    I2c (?) (7.3%):

    I-Z26381 x5 Armenian origin?

    I1 (7.3%):

    I1-L205.1 x3
    I1-Y7075 x2

    J2a (44%):

    J2a-L25 x2
    J2a-L26 x10
    J2a-L581 x3
    J2a-M67 x6
    J2a-L24
    J2-M172 x2
    J2a-L70 x3
    J2a-M92
    J2a-M319 x2

    J1 (4.4.%):

    J- CTS15/Z1828 x2
    J1-M267

    R1a (5.8%):

    R1a-CTS3402
    R1a-M512
    R1a-Z282
    R1a-L1029

    R1b (8.8%):

    R1b-P311
    R1b-U152 x3
    R1b-L23
    R1b-S1480


    P.S. Note that I am not sure how I-Z26381 is currently classified (in the past it was known as I2c?). Due to low sample size, the Cretan frequencies shown here are likely to be unbalanced. However, 113 people for a small island like Kalymnos is not so bad!
    Last edited by XXD; 04-29-2021 at 02:12 PM.
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    So here is an updated list of the Y-DNA of Kalymnos, based on 23abc's and my friend's matches combined (hopefully without many duplicates). We both used unique surnames:

    Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):


    E (3.5%):


    E-V13
    E-M78
    E-L677
    E-L791

    G (25.6%):

    G-CTS11562 x26
    G-PF3345
    G-M342 x2

    I2 (8.8%):

    I2a-M223 x3
    I2a-S12195 x5
    I2a-CTS10228
    I2a-L699

    I1 (1.7%)

    I1-M253
    I1-M227

    J2a (27.4%):

    J2a-M319 x2
    J2a-L25 x3
    J2a-L26 x2
    J2a-M67 x7
    J2a-L70 x14
    J2a-L24
    J2a-M92
    J2a-M172

    J2b (2.6%)

    J2b-M12
    J2b-M241
    J2b-L83

    J1 (10.6%):

    J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
    J1-Z2215 x8
    J1-M267 x2

    R1a (9.7%):

    R1a-Z93 x6
    R1a-M417 x4
    R1a-CTS3402

    R1b (9.7%):

    R1b-BY250
    R1b-Z2108
    R1b-P297 x3
    R1b-L23 x4
    R1b-U152
    R1b-M67


    Here is Crete (based on 68 matches of mine, 23abc's and peloponnesian's):

    Crete

    E (14.7%):

    E-M78 x2
    E-M123 x3
    E-M183
    E-V13 x3

    G (2.9%):

    G-Z30503
    G-Z17887

    I2a (5.8%):

    I2a-M438 x2
    I2a-S17250 x2

    I2c (?) (7.3%):

    I-Z26381 x5 Armenian origin?

    I1 (7.3%):

    I1-L205.1 x3
    I1-Y7075 x2

    J2a (44%):

    J2a-L25 x2
    J2a-L26 x10
    J2a-L581 x3
    J2a-M67 x6
    J2a-L24
    J2-M172 x2
    J2a-L70 x3
    J2a-M92
    J2a-M319 x2

    J1 (4.4.%):

    J- CTS15/Z1828 x2
    J1-M267

    R1a (5.8%):

    R1a-CTS3402
    R1a-M512
    R1a-Z282
    R1a-L1029

    R1b (8.8%):

    R1b-P311
    R1b-U152 x3
    R1b-L23
    R1b-S1480


    P.S. Note that I am not sure how I-Z26381 is currently classified (in the past it was known as I2c?). Due to low sample size, the Cretan frequencies shown here are likely to be unbalanced. However, 113 people for a small island like Kalymnos is not so bad!
    Interesting looking breakdown of the haplogroup results of your matches. Do you know of any Y-DNA results from the Sfakia region of Crete?

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    So here is an updated list of the Y-DNA of Kalymnos, based on 23abc's and my friend's matches combined (hopefully without many duplicates). We both used unique surnames:

    Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):


    E (3.5%):


    E-V13
    E-M78
    E-L677
    E-L791

    G (25.6%):

    G-CTS11562 x26
    G-PF3345
    G-M342 x2

    I2 (8.8%):

    I2a-M223 x3
    I2a-S12195 x5
    I2a-CTS10228
    I2a-L699

    I1 (1.7%)

    I1-M253
    I1-M227

    J2a (27.4%):

    J2a-M319 x2
    J2a-L25 x3
    J2a-L26 x2
    J2a-M67 x7
    J2a-L70 x14
    J2a-L24
    J2a-M92
    J2a-M172

    J2b (2.6%)

    J2b-M12
    J2b-M241
    J2b-L83

    J1 (10.6%):

    J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
    J1-Z2215 x8
    J1-M267 x2

    R1a (9.7%):

    R1a-Z93 x6
    R1a-M417 x4
    R1a-CTS3402

    R1b (9.7%):

    R1b-BY250
    R1b-Z2108
    R1b-P297 x3
    R1b-L23 x4
    R1b-U152
    R1b-M67


    Here is Crete (based on 68 matches of mine, 23abc's and peloponnesian's):

    Crete

    E (14.7%):

    E-M78 x2
    E-M123 x3
    E-M183
    E-V13 x3

    G (2.9%):

    G-Z30503
    G-Z17887

    I2a (5.8%):

    I2a-M438 x2
    I2a-S17250 x2

    I2c (?) (7.3%):

    I-Z26381 x5 Armenian origin?

    I1 (7.3%):

    I1-L205.1 x3
    I1-Y7075 x2

    J2a (44%):

    J2a-L25 x2
    J2a-L26 x10
    J2a-L581 x3
    J2a-M67 x6
    J2a-L24
    J2-M172 x2
    J2a-L70 x3
    J2a-M92
    J2a-M319 x2

    J1 (4.4.%):

    J- CTS15/Z1828 x2
    J1-M267

    R1a (5.8%):

    R1a-CTS3402
    R1a-M512
    R1a-Z282
    R1a-L1029

    R1b (8.8%):

    R1b-P311
    R1b-U152 x3
    R1b-L23
    R1b-S1480


    P.S. Note that I am not sure how I-Z26381 is currently classified (in the past it was known as I2c?). Due to low sample size, the Cretan frequencies shown here are likely to be unbalanced. However, 113 people for a small island like Kalymnos is not so bad!
    Thanks a lot for this threat. It is, indeed, quite interesting the relevant presence of J2 L70 on Greek islands. Best regards

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    In Heraclides 2017, 34 samples out of 344, or 9.9% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
    In Voskarides 2016, 46 samples out of 631 or 7.3% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
    Combined, there are 80 samples out of 975 Greek Cypriots, or 8.2% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13, and 975 samples are fairly representative sample size.

    Sources:
    Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements
    Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots

    In King 2008, in a sample of 193 people from Crete, there is 6.7% E-V13. This is not the best sample size however the percentage of E-V13 is not hugely different than Cyprus, only 1.5% less.

    In some other non-islander Greek but very similar populations such as Sicilians and South Italians, the percentage of E-V13 is very similar to Cyprus and Crete.
    In Boattini 2013, there is 10.6% of South Italians belonging to E-V13 and 7.6% of the Sicilians respectively.

    So overall, E-V13 is found between 6.7% and 8.2% in Crete and Greek Cypriots respectively and I don't believe that the other Greek isles closer to the mainland will have less E-V13 than what Cypriots and Cretans have. In fact we should expect the percentage of E-V13 to increase as we get closer to the mainland. Yes, J2a is the largest haplogroup in the islands but we can't compare percentage of haplogroup such as J2a which is lot older than E-V13. If we are to breakdown Cretan J2a haplogroup to smaller subclades then the largest subclade is J-M319, at 8.8%, which is still lot older than E-V13(TMRCA=4900 ybp), with TMRCA of 11200 ybp according to YFULL. J-M67 with a TMRCA of 12000 ybp is the third largest at 5.5%. This indicates that J2a is quite old and diverse in this region and probably connected with the older, pre-Greek peoples of the isles. On the other hand, we have to find out more about R-M269 in Cretans, which stands at 17%, and what subclades can be further broken down to, as well as the Cretan R1a-M198 which stands at 8.2%. These are the only haplogroups that have a bigger impact in Crete than E-V13, which can be TMRCA wise comparable with E-V13.

    Edit: Just to add, E-V13 is the largest E haplogroup in Crete as well as in the other islands. Only in Cyprus E-M123 appears larger than E-V13, at 11.2%, combined Voskarides and Heraklides samples together!
    Thanks for this useful contribution.

    This E-V13 found in Cyprus probably started to appear from the late Bronze Age with the arrival of Mycenaean Greek settlers and perhaps Sea Peoples. Evidence from recent 2021 research is indicating that Cyprus saw a demographic increase compared to other areas in the region during this period. This is consistent with a migration from the west and northwest, which is also evidenced by the well established LBA sociolinguistic transformation on the island, where the majority of towns became Greek-speaking, with the Cypriot Syllabary being used to represent the widely prevalent Arcado-Cypriot dialect.

    See: 'Holocene regional population dynamics and climatic trends in the Near East: A first comparison using archaeo-demographic proxies'

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...77379120307010

    This from the abstract:

    "This paper illustrates long-term trends in human population and climate from the Late Pleistocene to the Late Holocene (14,000–2500 cal. yr. BP) in order to assess to what degree climate change impacted human societies in the Near East. It draws on a large corpus of archaeo-demographic data, including anthropogenic radiocarbon dates (n = 10,653) and archaeological site survey (n = 22,533), and 16 hydro-climatic records from cave speleothems and lake sediments. Where possible, inferred population dynamics and climatic trends have been made spatially congruent, and their relationships have been statistically tested. Demographic proxies and palaeoclimatic records have been compared for the greater Near East as a whole and for seven major geo-cultural regions (Anatolia, Arabia, Cyprus, Iran, Levant, Mesopotamia, and South Caucasus). This approach allows us to identify regionalised patterns in population and climate trends."

    P7: "The Levant and Cyprus show similar population patterns across the Holocene with some striking differences in particular periods. For instance, in Cyprus population departs positively from the global pattern during the Aceramic Neolithic (11,000e9500 cal. yr. BP) and the Late Bronze Age(Fig. 3c)..."



    P22: "(During the Cypriot Late Bronze Age)...Aegean migrants settled along the coastal regions where polities survived and new trading harbours such as Amathus and Kourion were established."

    And for the record, I'm also E but one of those downstream of E-M123 and forming a practically unique subclade
    Last edited by Andrewid; 04-29-2021 at 03:43 PM.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Thanks for this useful contribution.

    This E-V13 found in Cyprus probably started to appear from the late Bronze Age with the arrival of Mycenaean Greek settlers and perhaps Sea Peoples. Evidence from recent 2021 research is indicating that Cyprus saw a demographic increase compared to other areas in the region during this period. This is consistent with a migration from the west and northwest, which is also evidenced by the well established LBA sociolinguistic transformation on the island, where the majority of towns became Greek-speaking, with the Cypriot Syllabary being used to represent the widely prevalent Arcado-Cypriot dialect.

    See: 'Holocene regional population dynamics and climatic trends in the Near East: A first comparison using archaeo-demographic proxies'

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...77379120307010

    This from the abstract:

    "This paper illustrates long-term trends in human population and climate from the Late Pleistocene to the Late Holocene (14,000–2500 cal. yr. BP) in order to assess to what degree climate change impacted human societies in the Near East. It draws on a large corpus of archaeo-demographic data, including anthropogenic radiocarbon dates (n = 10,653) and archaeological site survey (n = 22,533), and 16 hydro-climatic records from cave speleothems and lake sediments. Where possible, inferred population dynamics and climatic trends have been made spatially congruent, and their relationships have been statistically tested. Demographic proxies and palaeoclimatic records have been compared for the greater Near East as a whole and for seven major geo-cultural regions (Anatolia, Arabia, Cyprus, Iran, Levant, Mesopotamia, and South Caucasus). This approach allows us to identify regionalised patterns in population and climate trends."

    P7: "The Levant and Cyprus show similar population patterns across the Holocene with some striking differences in particular periods. For instance, in Cyprus population departs positively from the global pattern during the Aceramic Neolithic (11,000e9500 cal. yr. BP) and the Late Bronze Age(Fig. 3c)..."



    P22: "(During the Cypriot Late Bronze Age)...Aegean migrants settled along the coastal regions where polities survived and new trading harbours such as Amathus and Kourion were established."

    And for the record, I'm also E but one of those downstream of E-M123 and forming a practically unique subclade
    Have you seen this study about Cypriot Y-DNA?

    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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     Andrewid (04-29-2021)

  16. #29
    Registered Users
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    That is a lot of G1. Do you happen to know what subclade(s) these men fall under?
    As stated, G-CTS11562.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-CTS11562/

    I doubt there's any diversity. I'm not sure what the TMRCA of their ancestor would be but it would probably answer the question of how long Kalymnos has been inhabited by the same population. Or if it has been repopulated more recently than I think it has.
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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     antpet (04-30-2021),  Helves (04-29-2021),  ShpataEMadhe (09-03-2021)

  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    Have you seen this study about Cypriot Y-DNA?

    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8
    Indeed. I have referenced to it before in posts. And Heraclides uses their findings to compare with those of Voskarides' team. There have also been extensive discoveries of tombs with skeletons in good condition near Larnaca over the last few years, which date from just before the Greek settlements. aDNA has been extracted and the findings will be fascinating and will tell us much about the Cypriot population in the early part of the LBA.
    Last edited by Andrewid; 04-29-2021 at 07:47 PM.

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