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Thread: How far has Central European Bronze and Iron Ages pushed to the North?

  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Nevertheless has the wizard or whizkid of Le Normandy some sober notions about the reasons. I can imagine that Battle Axe and Single Grave have a common genetic element. But until a good proof I don't believe in one genetic profile that stretches from Battle Axe Sweden to modern NW France May be in Walhalla.
    ... unless the genetic mix of the BAC people is ultimately the source of all Germanic ancestry in Northern Europe? Come on, I'm teasing you (maybe). In the meantime, more on my darlings:
    https://www.academia.edu/16257177/Do...k_Carving_Area
    and for the fun: https://www.academia.edu/35853200/Ph...nterpretations
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  3. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    ... unless the genetic mix of the BAC people is ultimately the source of all Germanic ancestry in Northern Europe? Come on, I'm teasing you (maybe). In the meantime, more on my darlings:
    https://www.academia.edu/16257177/Do...k_Carving_Area
    and for the fun: https://www.academia.edu/35853200/Ph...nterpretations
    .....mmmm isn't it annoying for you that general BAC people is the max we can get out of our advanced mathematic models?
    Last edited by Finn; 05-17-2021 at 07:27 PM.

  4. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    .....mmmm isn't it annoying for you that general BAC people is the max we can get out of our advanced mathematic models?
    Finn, I was teasing you. That said, people have for years (and still now perhaps) searched models with Yamnaya_Samara in the context of the whole Europe and Indo-European linguistic community. Why not BAC in the context of north Euro? Would you find it annoying if I presented good models with Dutch Beakers? After all, don't people automatically react with "Hallstatt" so soon as the word "Celtic" is written? So soon as the word "Germanic" is written I react automatically with "Battle Axe". I'm programmed that way. Yep! No, seriously, you know very well that for me "Germanic" is a word for a linguistic category, and nothing else
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    ... unless the genetic mix of the BAC people is ultimately the source of all Germanic ancestry in Northern Europe? Come on, I'm teasing you (maybe). In the meantime, more on my darlings:
    https://www.academia.edu/16257177/Do...k_Carving_Area
    and for the fun: https://www.academia.edu/35853200/Ph...nterpretations
    As a native alpine I'm interested in rock art. Since Finn mentioned italic and germanic distant relations for what is worth at least as food for tought.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ysp-sZ1QmJgDqN

    Lene Melheim*, Anette Sand-EriksenRock Art and Trade Networks: From Scandinavia to the Italian Alps

    https://doi.org/10.1515/opar-2020-0101Received December 27, 2019; accepted February 28, 2020

    Abstract: This article uses rock art to explore potential bonds between Scandinavia and Italy, starting in the second half of the third millennium BCE with the enigmatic Mjeltehaugen burial monument in coastal western Norway and its striking rock art images, and ending in the first millennium BCE with ship motifs in inland Val Camonica, Italy. While the carved dagger on the Mjeltehaugen slab is unique in its Nordic setting, such weapon depictions are frequently seen on the Continent, e.g. in South Tyrol, and more often in later Nordic rock art. Strong evidence of trade relations between the Italian Alps and Scandinavia is found c. 1500–1100 BCE when the importation of copper from South Tyrol coincided with two-way transmission of luxury items, and again in a different form, c. 1000–700 BCE when strong similarities in burial traditions between the two areas may be seen as evidence of direct cultural connections or a shared cultural koiné. In order to understand the social fabric of these relations and how they unfolded through time, the authors discuss several different models of interaction. It is hypothesised that rock art practices played a role in establishing and maintaining durable social relations, through what we consider to be a two-way transmission of symbolic concepts and iconography during seasonal meetings related to trade and travel

    I find particularly interesting the house urn practice. It is incredible present both in Etruria and Rome and in northern Germany
    Last edited by etrusco; 05-17-2021 at 08:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Finn, I was teasing you. That said, people have for years (and still now perhaps) searched models with Yamnaya_Samara in the context of the whole Europe and Indo-European linguistic community. Why not BAC in the context of north Euro? Would you find it annoying if I presented good models with Dutch Beakers? After all, don't people automatically react with "Hallstatt" so soon as the word "Celtic" is written? So soon as the word "Germanic" is written I react automatically with "Battle Axe". I'm programmed that way. Yep! No, seriously, you know very well that for me "Germanic" is a word for a linguistic category, and nothing else
    I agree with 'BAC in context' of north Euro. Germanic is also connected with people or may be better peoples. I guess the association for the most of us is never sec linguistic. Neither if we may like this or not.....
    Last edited by Finn; 05-18-2021 at 06:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    ... unless the genetic mix of the BAC people is ultimately the source of all Germanic ancestry in Northern Europe? Come on, I'm teasing you (maybe). In the meantime, more on my darlings:
    https://www.academia.edu/16257177/Do...k_Carving_Area
    and for the fun: https://www.academia.edu/35853200/Ph...nterpretations
    In retrospect, I probably should have figured this out but everytime I’ve seen those carvings, I’ve always wondered; what the hell is sticking out of their asses!?

    Well, now I know. Scabbards, of course!

    1396692F-13BC-49E0-A623-E9B85054C34B.jpeg
    Last edited by JMcB; 05-18-2021 at 02:40 AM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    The why is in the map. Battle Axe is further away from modern Swedes than Unetice. For what it's worth of course.
    You seem to confuse the genetic similarity with the genetic relationship. If I had a kid with a Japanese woman, then this child of mine would land very far away from me on the West Eurasian PCA (much further away from me than, for example, you or other Dutch people), yet this wouldn't mean that I am less closely related to my own child than to all modern Europeans.

    Similarly, the fact that the proportions between some very ancient components in Bronze Age and modern Swedes resemble the Central European Unetice people more than some ancestral Scandinavian populations (including both the BAC people and some local Neolithic/Mesolithic Scandinavian people) does not mean that the BA Swedes were more closely related to Unetice than to Scandinavian BAC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    You seem to confuse the genetic similarity with the genetic relationship. If I had a kid with a Japanese woman, then this child of mine would land very far away from me on the West Eurasian PCA (much further away from me than, for example, you or other Dutch people), yet this wouldn't mean that I am less closely related to my own child than to all modern Europeans.

    Similarly, the fact that the proportions between some very ancient components in Bronze Age and modern Swedes resemble the Central European Unetice people more than some ancestral Scandinavian populations (including both the BAC people and some local Neolithic/Mesolithic Scandinavian people) does not mean that the BA Swedes were more closely related to Unetice than to Scandinavian BAC.
    You are absolutely right.

    My aim is not so much to show it's a 1:1 relationship.

    Nevertheless there was probably a kind of "Unetice colony" in SW Scania at least it was part of the "Unetice network". That's archeological attested.

    To get some clear relationship in genetic sense, we must have enough LNBA samples of SW Scania. And the complicating factor is that is most probably the case that in EBA the Unetice population was in some sense already admixed so to say, not like the incoming Battle Axe or Single grave that were clearly differentiated from the funnelbeakers.....So in some sense indigenous LNBA Scania could resemble Unetice. Makes it to a complicated story.

    That said I guess we, or I, don't have to expect too much to see clear relationships (Unetice/ LNBA Scania) based on the available samples and related PCA.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-18-2021 at 11:33 AM.

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  16. #299
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    In the event we got Unetice migrations going from Central Europe to the Northern Germany/Southern Denmark to peninsular Scandinavia and that this is what lead to the dispersal of Pre-Pre-Proto-Germanic (or proto-gebrabbel as I like to call it), any genetic shift isn't going to be massive.

    Lets say that each stage was a demographically significant event with about 50% newly incoming ancestry. Central Europe > northern Germany and adjacent swamps > Southern Denmark > Peninsular Scandinavia. If thats 50% each you have less than 10% contribution from Central European Unetice peoples by the time you get to Sweden, but 50% ancestry from people bringing in Unetice Culture "culture".

    It's possible but I still bet my hedges that proto-gebrabbel is from the northern parts of continental Europe both in a linguistic and genetic sense. Part of the Unetice network that radiated out of Central-Eastern Germany but not majorly derived from the people within that horizon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    In the event we got Unetice migrations going from Central Europe to the Northern Germany/Southern Denmark to peninsular Scandinavia and that this is what lead to the dispersal of Pre-Pre-Proto-Germanic (or proto-gebrabbel as I like to call it), any genetic shift isn't going to be massive.

    Lets say that each stage was a demographically significant event with about 50% newly incoming ancestry. Central Europe > northern Germany and adjacent swamps > Southern Denmark > Peninsular Scandinavia. If thats 50% each you have less than 10% contribution from Central European Unetice peoples by the time you get to Sweden, but 50% ancestry from people bringing in Unetice Culture "culture".

    It's possible but I still bet my hedges that proto-gebrabbel is from the northern parts of continental Europe both in a linguistic and genetic sense. Part of the Unetice network that radiated out of Central-Eastern Germany but not majorly derived from the people within that horizon.
    Nice comprehension and resume in compact post- Germanic gebrabbel!

    Gebabbel-gebabbel (with hard GGGGG :

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