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Thread: How far has Central European Bronze and Iron Ages pushed to the North?

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    No problem, Finn. Obviously, it was a case of miscommunication on our part. No harm intended, no foul

    Ok nice!

    Nevertheless this was the third time you said I didn't read the Finnish papers. I already did from the beginning. And now I even gave a reaction per paper.

    So a reaction (with some content) would be great and is really appreciated.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-15-2021 at 07:04 PM.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Ok nice!

    Nevertheless this was the third time you said I didn't read the Finnish papers. I already did from the beginning. And now I even gave a reaction per paper.

    So a reaction (with some content) would be great and is really appreciated.


    As I recall, it was only once.


    The only reason I suggested you read the papers, was because you kept misrepresenting the position of Kallio and Jaska. By claiming they were saying that Finnic and Saami were an influence on Germanic. When they were saying it was the other way around.



    For example here (#72):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770331

    Originally Posted by Finn
    What kind of evidence do you have that the Germanic language, the Elb-Germanic and the Rhine-Germanic ones, have substantial influence from the Saami/Finnic? (see the last question).

    Jaska Not that way. But there is Germanic influence to Saami and Finnic since the Archaic IE.


    here (#73):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770333

    Originally Posted by Finn
    And then you come and state that they were more influenced by the language of the Finns and Saami, from a peripheral region of reindeer herders? seriously?

    Jaska: I have never said that. Maybe you should read better my comments.

    Besides, Saami was earlier spoken south, around Lake Ladoga and Southern Finland, and Finnic in Baltia. Reindeer herding was adopted only during the Medieval times in Northern Scandinavia.


    here (#82)

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770375

    Originally Posted by Finn
    In the Elbe area, you know the river that connected the Valsømagle and Jastorf cultures direct with the nowadays Czech area, there was in EBA already the Unetice culture, very advanced and they had contacts with Cornwell and the Wessex culture. A very sophisticated culture see:

    And the following cultures from Central (East) Europe were also advanced, front running.You must be totally blind for the context when you state that a periphery culture of Finns and Saami had a bigger effect and earlier contacts than the Celts c.s. Central European Bronze/ Iron age cultures.

    Jaska: You didn't read my comment, so why do you answer? You cannot just decide that the Central European cultures were Germanic speaking, that is unscientific. All the relevant linguistic evidence shows us that they were not, until the Iron Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    It's more likely that a language is derived or have leanwords from the more advanced (/dominant) culture. Simple as that! Why should the Saami/Finnic language have had bigger impact?

    Jaska You didn't read or understand what I just wrote. Please read before answering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    A introgression of (proto) germanic or IE into Finnic/Saami makes more sense. What is the urge of (proto) Germanics to copy cat the Saami/Finnic language?
    Even today this is the pattern. In NW Europe we copy more the US riddles than that of the Molodavian language... Guess why.

    Jaska:I never claimed that Finnic and Saami influenced Germanic. Read what I wrote. I already corrected you once, now I corrected you the second time.


    and here (#87):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770424

    Jaska: I never claimed that Finnic and Saami influenced Germanic. Read what I wrote. I already corrected you once, now I corrected you the second time.

    Finn : You have stated that it early influenced proto Germanic, even earlier than (proto) Celtic.


    These statements appeared long after Jaska posted Kallio’s papers (in post #5). So it appeared to me that you hadn’t read the papers. Or perhaps, had only lightly skimmed them and were getting the directional influence wrong. Which is why I suggested you should read the papers, right after the above exchanges took place.


    Here (#89):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770479

    Hello Finn,

    I think you might get a better idea of what Jaska is proposing, if you read the articles he posted earlier in the thread. They’re actually pretty interesting and not all that long. So it won’t take that much time.

    The only other time I recall mentioning anything about reading the papers, was in response to a post by Angles who wasn’t talking to you at the time. Nevertheless, in retrospect, I think I should have phrased that differently. Even though it was really pretty tame and wasn't referring to you anyway.



    As for the rest of the conversation, I think I’ve had enough for the time being and will gladly leave it to others. Besides, I’ve already come to my own conclusions.
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    The next article suggested:

    However, as the number of the Pre-Germanic loanwords is very limited, they do not suggest particularly intensive contacts between the late Neolithic ancestors of Germanic and Finnic, but these words may even have been bor-rowed through some third party, just as several later Germanic loanwords were borrowed through Finnic into Volgaic and Permic (cf. Hofstra 1985: 391–402). In theory, therefore, Pre-Finnic could still have remained in the Upper Volga area at the time when its Pre-Germanic loanwords were borrowed through some pos-sibly related language spoken in the East Baltic area.
    In any case, the presence of Pre-Finnic itself in the East Baltic area during the late Neolithic period (ca. 2300–1900 BC) can also be questioned
    As 450 “early Germanic” loanwords had already been discovered in Finnic more than a quarter of a century ago (Itkonen 1983: 225), their number must now be close to 500, of course depending on the defi nition of “early Germanic-ness”. As a matter of fact, there are only 114 loanwords that are markedly “early Germanic”, viz. earlier than the reconstructed Late Proto-Finnic stage (Aikio & Aikio 2001: 19–21). Yet many of these loanwords can further be stratifi ed based on their phonology. For instance, the earliest stratum consists of borrowings whose vocalism clearly points to a more archaic source than Proto-Germanic, here labelled Palaeo-Germanic
    Which is basically the same as what I called Para-Germanic or simply general Centum dialects of the North.

    Palaeo-Germanic largely dates to the Nordic Bronze Age (ca. 1800–500 BC), at the end of which, however, it had almost reached the Proto-Germanic stage. Now the problem is that the Germanic loanwords in Finnic do not show perhaps the most characteristic Proto-Germanic innovations, namely Grimm’s Law and the accent shift to the initial syllable.5 In most cases, therefore, it is impossible to decide if the source language was Palaeo-Germanic or Proto-Ger-manic, even though one can only see the latter reconstructions in the scholarly literature
    You might probably refer to this:
    As a matter of fact, the best evidence for a Bronze Age date comes from the Finnic side. For instance, the Bronze Age loanwords often have regular cog-nates in Saamic and therefore seem to go back to the Proto-Finno-Saamic stage. Even when they do not have cognates in Saamic, their phonological structure corresponds to the same Early Proto-Finnic stage (on which see Lehtinen 2007: 82–93). This stage has generally been dated to the Bronze Age (see the Table in Kallio 2006b: 2, 24), and I see no reason to disagree (see Kallio 2007: 245–246).
    https://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266_kallio.pdf

    This is however kind of evidence "around three corners" and that's making it no hard proof. But while its no hard or conclusive evidence, its probably a possible, additional argument. But again, most certainly no conclusive evidence which could overwrite other, more clear cut lines of argumentation and safely datable evidence, like especially from what will be upcoming from ancient DNA, which will have with absolute certainty the last word in this matter. Probably not with the first results, which might still remain debatable and inconclusive, but on the longer run. My takeaway from the linguistic approach is that its possible Finns had early contacts with actual Pre- and real Proto-Germanics before the Iron Age, but the evidence for this remains rather illusive and can be argued about. The safe starting point is the Iron Age, just like with other lines of evidence gathered so far. What was before, we hopefully will know in some years from now, based on ancient DNA evidence, especially the study of the migration patterns and spread of paternal lineages, like those of I1 and R1b-U106 in particular.
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-15-2021 at 10:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider99 View Post
    That map is great, definitely does the job for gaining an understanding of their distribution and as you say, the distribution comes as no shock and really "makes sense". Figure 91 and 92 in the dissertation by Skjelsvik are also helpful. 92 especially so, because it shows the distribution of these circles in northern Germany and I haven't managed to find a map of that.
    About the standing stones that are sometimes found in the middle of the circles, I stumbled upon something similar when having a look at some judge's seats from Satakunta in Finland dated to the Migration Period. I'm sure there is a lot more information to be found about the Finnish ones, I just haven't been that lucky so far: https://www.nationalparks.fi/karajamaki/history

    "On the hilltop, a "Court circle", or "judges' stones" mark two graves. Twelve stones now form the circle, but according to folklore, a large flat stone used to stand in the middle. It was later moved to the foundation of the Iso-Vahee house nearby. Two pit graves have been found inside the stone circle."
    That makes me ponder over the purpose (if there was any) of the middle stones. If we assume that the circles actually function as thing sites, maybe a moderator of sorts was standing by the middle stone passing the word to the other jurymen? Somebody would have had to stop them from interrupting each other

    On page 184 of Skjelsvik's thesis she touches on the circles in Satakunta and writes that some circles there had supposedly been destroyed. She uses the word "opplysninger" so it's a little unclear (to me) if there were in fact more circles that had been destroyed or if those were rumors.
    Honestly, fornminnesok.no isn't that bad at all when it comes to navigation. Wait until you've seen riksantikvarieämbetets fornsök tool: https://app.raa.se/open/fornsok/

    I'm gonna look around for some Danish publications about the circles. They were used for so long when ruling on legal matters there, so there should be. Speaking of Danes, I wonder what Kristiansen's opinion on their purpose and the groups they were associated with is.
    Yes, that was pretty neat. What's your take on the origin by the way? Do you think it initially spread from Sweden? It was interesting to read the part in page 192 where Skjelsvik suggests that they could've resulted from direct contacts with the East Germanic sphere. In the lines afterwards she refers to Sahlström and the findings in the paper to conclude that they probably didn't originate in Scandinavia, in disagreement with the German scholars, rather proposing that they were a result of contacts with both West and East Germanics, and were thus imported. Seems like there’s some problems with the dating here though, if we want to use those linguistic affiliations.

    About the Finnish ones, maybe some of our Finnish users on the forum could help? I'm sure someone here knows where to find more intel.
    On the destroyed ones I actually checked the reference. Had to smile a bit, if I got it right the information is apparently taken from "my well-meaning correspondence with C.F Meinander, Helsingfors".

    Looks pretty similar, haha. Admittedly kulturminnesøk.no isn't that bad, just a bit slow sometimes. What I don't like is that there's no good way to filter on metadata when you use the search-option.

    Did you listen to Kristiansen's podcast with Razib Khan? https://razib.substack.com/p/kristiankristiansen
    You'll need a paid subscription, although honestly there wasn't that much new brought to the table. Mostly a revisitation of themes and findings that's been known for a while, with some interesting anecdotes here and there (favorite tidbit was him having a drink with David Anthony celebrating being vindicated on the steppe-hypothesis). Something that also sparked my attention was at one point where he was talking about there now being signs that showed three to five (presumably) separate migration-events, corresponding to different paternal lineages, but I think he meant mostly within the frame of the earlier stage of CWC-migrations into Northern Europe. I'm not sure he meant to suggest this was corroborated by new unpublished data, as he didn't go into it at any depth.

    I also just noticed a new publication from his team, with isotopic data from LBA-Scania, which should be very relevant to the topic of the thread
    Testing Late Bronze Age mobility in southern Sweden in the light of a new multi-proxy strontium isotope baseline of Scania
    Pernille Ladegaard-Pedersen, Serena Sabatini, Robert Frei, Kristian Kristiansen, Karin Margarita Frei

    "The Bronze Age of Sweden’s southernmost region, Scania, is complex and intriguing. One could say that Scania represented in many ways a gateway for people, ideas and material culture connecting continental Europe with Sweden. Shedding light on the dynamics of human mobility in this region requires an in depth understanding of the local archaeological contexts across time. In this study, we present new archaeological human data from the Late Bronze Age Simris II site, located in an area of Scania showing a dynamic environment throughout the Late Bronze Age, thus likely involving various forms of mobility.
    [...]
    From the Late Bronze Age Simris II site, we identified six individuals that could be analysed for Sr isotopes, to allow for an interpretation of their provenance using the newly established, environmental strontium isotope baselines. All but one signature agrees with the local baselines, including the 87Sr/86Sr value we measured for a young individual buried in a house urn, typically interpreted as evidence for long distance contacts. The results are somewhat unexpected and provides new aspects into the complexity of Scandinavian Bronze Age societies."
    Maybe not hugely important, but something that adds a little nuance to discussion on the NBA. Looks like a pretty sparse amount of samples though, so not sure how generalizable any of this would be.
    Last edited by Bygdedweller; 05-15-2021 at 11:48 PM.

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    I've been checking in on this thread from time to time. I have nothing to add as linguistics isn't my expertise or interest.

    Just an observation for my fellow members: I think sometimes we forget we are from various cultural backgrounds with different social norms.

    I've had some previous run ins with Finn, and recently (unrelated to interactions with Finn), I was curious how Dutch and Belgians viewed each other. I learned they have sterotypes of each other (much like the Southerners & Northerners in the US have stereotypes). In the process of researching this I was made aware of a Dutch stereotype, that reminded me of my previous interactions with Finn...explaining why I viewed him as sometimes being rude...at least from my perspective.

    "Dutch people are rude."
    Dutch people are not rude, or at least they don’t mean to be anyway. The Dutch are frank, blunt, no-nonsense people. They are very direct and won’t pretend to like something just because they think it might offend you if they give their honest opinion. This can be very refreshing, but for some people, it might come a bit as a shock, especially if you come from a culture where people try to be very polite (to the point of almost being passive-aggressive even).
    https://www.europelanguagecafe.com/c...-dutch-people/

    [Dutch] are not afraid to give [their] opinion, even if it offends others
    You wear your heart on your sleeve and you’ve been labeled as rude more than once. You prefer to think of yourself as being direct or honest and you wish more people would appreciate that. You’re also known to have an opinion on everything — even subjects you hardly know about.
    https://www.expatica.com/nl/moving/a...otypes-733018/

    Anyway, part of this often occurring conflict with Finn and others (like myself from a southern US perspective where folks tend to view blunt/to the point "Yankees" as being rude) might just be cultural differences/misunderstandings.

    If this post is unhelpful, or unwanted then please ignore.
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  9. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I've been checking in on this thread from time to time. I have nothing to add as linguistics isn't my expertise or interest.

    Just an observation for my fellow members: I think sometimes we forget we are from various cultural backgrounds with different social norms.

    I've had some previous run ins with Finn, and recently (unrelated to interactions with Finn), I was curious how Dutch and Belgians viewed each other. I learned they have sterotypes of each other (much like the Southerners & Northerners in the US have stereotypes). In the process of researching this I was made aware of a Dutch stereotype, that reminded me of my previous interactions with Finn...explaining why I viewed him as sometimes being rude...at least from my perspective.


    https://www.europelanguagecafe.com/c...-dutch-people/


    https://www.expatica.com/nl/moving/a...otypes-733018/

    Anyway, part of this often occurring conflict with Finn and others (like myself from a southern US perspective where folks tend to view blunt/to the point "Yankees" as being rude) might just be cultural differences/misunderstandings.

    If this post is unhelpful, or unwanted then please ignore.
    The funny part is that this stereotypical sober/rude Dutch behaviour is even more so a thing in the north, where Finn is from. Probably due to the rain or something ^_^

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  11. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    As I recall, it was only once.


    The only reason I suggested you read the papers, was because you kept misrepresenting the position of Kallio and Jaska. By claiming they were saying that Finnic and Saami were an influence on Germanic. When they were saying it was the other way around.



    For example here (#72):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770331





    here (#73):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770333





    here (#82)

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770375





    and here (#87):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770424





    These statements appeared long after Jaska posted Kallio’s papers (in post #5). So it appeared to me that you hadn’t read the papers. Or perhaps, had only lightly skimmed them and were getting the directional influence wrong. Which is why I suggested you should read the papers, right after the above exchanges took place.


    Here:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post770479



    The only other time I recall mentioning anything about reading the papers, was in response to a post by Angles who wasn’t talking to you at the time. Nevertheless, in retrospect, I think I should have phrased that differently. Even though it was really pretty tame and wasn't referring to you anyway.



    As for the rest of the conversation, I think I’ve had enough for the time being and will gladly leave it to others. Besides, I’ve already come to my own conclusions.
    sapere aude!

    That's a 'meta observation' JmcB not on the subject.

    I have started this topic to talk about the influence of Central European Bronze Age and Iron Age culture on the North. From an explicit historical perspective. Not only language but inclusive language.

    Since the beginning I have made clear that an EBA influx from Central European Bronze Age does not conflict with later on interaction with Saami and Finns. Deaf ears.

    Jaska, like obviously other Finnic scholars, obviously think that a Germanic-Finnish/Saami interaction is not congruent with a North-Central heartland of (proto) Germanic speakers.

    Or at least that is the interpretation of you and Angles.

    Riverman, Helves and I have shown that even based on their own papers there is room for it, but ok.

    And indeed I don't praise Jaska to the skies. That's true. Sapere Aude!

    You know my 'method' is that during this 'conversation' I do research with besides edu on internet, also a big university library on my side. So during the conversation I get associations and insights. New questions. Some may be odd or are foolish. Sometimes imo I'm on a right kind of track. No rounded opinions if this may seem like.

    Anyway my tentative conclusion regarding the subject:

    1. An EBA entre to the North of 'Uneticians' (and their voice c.q. tongue is likely. That is in archeology and in genetics the state of the art.
    2. The Scandic Urheimat theory is shaky, leaves too many unanswered questions and inconsistencies and lacks evidence from the moment this theory became usance at the end of the nineteenth century.

    But I don't think the conversation is over yet....
    Last edited by Finn; 05-16-2021 at 07:11 AM.

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  13. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    The funny part is that this stereotypical sober/rude Dutch behaviour is even more so a thing in the north, where Finn is from. Probably due to the rain or something ^_^
    Soft on the person hard on the matter Copper Axe and Mitchell! Have you seen blunt assaults on the person from my side?

    Nevertheless CopperAxe and you have really a point, for example with the soberness. Sapere Aude! My region of birth and upbringing is (even within the North) famous for their touch of independence thinking. Much room for dissenters. Less room for orthodoxy or fear of authority. Indeed: 'their honest opinion'.

    And from my perspective I'm sometimes forced into the orthodoxy (Angles: 'the sweet comfort of quiet orthodoxy').

    So with all the respect I want to get to the core and I'm not willing to accept an opinion, in advance or automatically, no matter how top-academic.

    In casu Jaska I guess with this motto's prominently on his blog:

    ~ Freedom Fighter (linguistic, verbal)
    ~ Migration critical (country, city)
    ~ Religious and rational: against religious and ideological brainwashing
    ~ Censorship-critical and truth-oriented: with resentment against domination
    ....he can expect that on return so to say.

    So may be when he comes back from Finnish wintersleep (= suspended, so really rude behavior!?) we will see.

    But as said from my side soft on the person, hard on the matter.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-16-2021 at 07:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    As I recall, it was only once.
    One add. Mitch has really bull's eye in my case. When you post to Angles: "Thank you my friend! You’ve already been too kind!"

    Seen the rest of the conversation, my first reaction is in Dutch aaahw man "stroopslikker"! (syrup swallower, means something like flattering behavior).

    Let me permit one style remark, which is as such really off topic, not of business, your style is really born out of incense! I hope that you don't feel offended, or think typical Dutch (as Mitch would say) with 'honest opinion'. Go to h... with you 'honest opinion' Finn!

    Nevertheless I appreciate you (not meant as stroopslikken you really have a sense for atmosphere (a decent guy) here and that's also needed.

    Ok back to business, or is this too calvinistic?
    Last edited by Finn; 05-16-2021 at 07:06 AM.

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    Let me add my note to these psychological reflections. The fact that most of us here speak a language that is not our mother tongue does not help with each other's behavioural traits. You can master the syntax of English well (and I'm not claiming that I do) without having total control over the "tone" of what you write. I remember a debate on the 23 & me forum which had turned into a tussle only because of perfectly acceptable expressions in French which once translated seemed to border on rudeness, at least incongruity. It took a perfectly bilingual Canadian to explain that no one had insulted anyone for everyone to realize that basically, everyone was in agreement. I am afraid for example that this is the case here when I say that Finn is "as stubborn as a mule". In French, there is nothing insulting, or even aggressive. I say this every day about my wife and my sons. The fact that someone is able to defend their position until the last drop of blood (or saliva) is even rather valued."Têtu comme une mule" (stubborn as a mule) is in French a rather affectionate judgment, which will be accompanied by a smirk, not at all what one would say of an enemy. Back to the subject. I agree with Kallio when he writes that the stratigraphy of Germanic borrowings in Saami and Finnish invalidates any Central European theory for Proto-Germanic (unless it is Aikio or Koivulehto, I don't have time to look for the source). In short, this stratigraphy, carefully studied, makes absolutely necessary the establishment in Finland of a bilingual community in constant relation with the "source region". Unless you imagine a prehistoric Lufthansa with a regular line between Thuringia and Finland, that puts Udolph out of the game and closes all possibility else than Sweden. I spent a good part of the night looking for the critical review written by Bichlmeier of Euler's book (in cahier 1 of volume 60 of "das Altertum"), as well as the studies which detect proto-Germanisms in the Scandinavian toponymy (Andersson, Strandberg, Heikkilä). Alas, I am empty-handed.
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 05-16-2021 at 08:19 AM.
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