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Thread: How far has Central European Bronze and Iron Ages pushed to the North?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    So I'm obliged to answer all your questions? I will remember this...I guess vice versa is also the case?

    I guess, but I'm not certain the Saami language I'm not really into but my impression is that this language was may be internal called Saami but this title was not general (so by 'outsiders') in use until the end of twentieth century. Until recently in Dutch we called it Lappen and Lapland.

    But the situation of the Germani is totally different. The Saami were and may be are a much smaller and especially more coherent people than the Germanics. There is a kind of Saami unity but no Germanic unity (not in the past not now).
    Of course there was the Germanic unity. All the Germanic languages descend from Proto-Germanic, which was spoken some centuries BC.

    I tried to make you understand, that it is not well-based to claim, that some ethno-linguistic group only exists after its neighbours call it with some name. For some reason you think that this could be true for Germanic.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    @Jaska I go with Udolph (1994) who stated that the core of (proto) Germanic lays in: “der Raum zwischen Harz, Thüringer Wald und Erzgebirge” (also around the Elbe!). Based on the oldest Germanic topology. Thats pretty Central European. Even Unetice!
    Placenames alone are a weak evidence. They lack the meaning, so one placename can be explained from dozens of different words in different languages.

    Loanwords are much stronger evidence, because they cannot be coincidental and uncertain like placenames. And loanwords prove that the early stages of Germanic were spoken close to Saami and Finnic, not close to Celtic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    And of course in the end Germanic has roots in the Indo-European language especially Corded Ware (in casu Single Grave). So more Central and Eastern European (and beyond) rooted. And not the Ural, Lapland, or Finland...
    Of course. Corded Ware Culture spread to Sweden from the east, from Baltia and Finland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    So:

    = nonsense

    Because than you must rely the hypothesis of Udolph that the oldest (proto) Germanic topology is to be found in the “der Raum zwischen Harz, Thüringer Wald und Erzgebirge”. Was the research of Udolph fake? Wasn't this the place in which the oldest Germanic names were being used? What's the contra-evidence?
    Placenames alone are a weak evidence. They cannot overrule the testify of the loanwords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    Have you ever seen the spread of Single Grave/ Corded Ware?
    Here you see a map of relationship between the different Single Grave/Corded Ware area's. Indeed "in the Udolph area" and the coastal North Sea area's around North Dutch, NW Germany, Jutland:
    There are always contacts between neighbouring cultures.
    You still cannot see from the archaeological data, which cultural influence spread the language, and which language was spoken within a culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    Do you think Single Grave came from Finland or the Ural?????
    Of course not. That's a strawman you are building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Indeed, the pre-Germanic homeland was for sure South of Scandinavia, to put it that way. The most interesting question therefore is, when Proto- or already fully developed Germanic actually reached Scandinavia as such and spread to areas like Western Norway in particular. This is no arbitrary question, because its hard to answer. But surely not before the Nordic Bronze Age and no later than with the introduction of iron.
    No, just the opposite: all the evidence points to the Scandinavia as the Pre-Germanic homeland.

    1. Loanwords are stronger evidence than placenames alone.
    2. Germanic had earlier contacts with Finnic and Saami than with Celtic.

    Please read the links I gave earlier in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    No, just the opposite: all the evidence points to the Scandinavia as the Pre-Germanic homeland.

    1. Loanwords are stronger evidence than placenames alone.
    2. Germanic had earlier contacts with Finnic and Saami than with Celtic.

    Please read the links I gave earlier in this thread.
    How can loanwords be stronger evidence than placenames? Nobody can date Finnic loanwords in the pre-Germanics to 2.000 BC. That's not possible. I mean people can try, but that won't better evidence than the archaeological and genetic record, which is quite clear on the matter. To me its no haplogroup N dominated group means no Finno-Ugrians around.

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    Placenames alone are a weak evidence. They cannot overrule the testify of the loanwords.
    Even a supposed weak evidence is an evidence. This doesn't mean Udolph was wrong. Does it?

    There are always contacts between neighbouring cultures.
    You still cannot see from the archaeological data, which cultural influence spread the language, and which language was spoken within a culture.
    Nevertheless when they have exact the same same kind of cultural rites, so a same sense of belonging..... It's not a proof but it's assumable that they understood each other because Single Grave People interacted, communicated with each other, and even more they were clannish (=close kinship) so not weird to suppose they shared also a same kind of language!

    Of course not. That's a strawman you are building.
    What kind of evidence do you have that the Germanic language, the Elb-Germanic and the Rhine-Germanic ones, have substantial influence from the Saami/Finnic? (see the last question).

    Corded Ware Culture spread to Sweden from the east, from Baltia and Finland.
    I'm talking about Single Grave that didn't came via the Baltics or Finland they came via Central-East Europe! See the map again, Finnic/Baltic ZERO spots.




    Germanic were spoken close to Saami and Finnic, not close to Celtic.
    There are lots of loanwords from Celtic in proto-Germanic, can you produce a list from Saami an Finnic likewise this one?
    https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kroch/co...celt-loans.pdf
    Last edited by Finn; 05-07-2021 at 02:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Of course there was the Germanic unity. All the Germanic languages descend from Proto-Germanic, which was spoken some centuries BC.

    I tried to make you understand, that it is not well-based to claim, that some ethno-linguistic group only exists after its neighbours call it with some name. For some reason you think that this could be true for Germanic.
    The Germanic unity is false the one and only original Germani lived along the Rhine Delta, it's assumable that they spoke a more Hallstatt/La Tene kind of language!
    The Elb Germanics along the Elbe is another story they were in contact with the Valsųmagle culture and area (and even overlapped) and were also deeply connected (via the Elbe) with Central Europe. And then you come and state that they were more influenced by the language of the Finns and Saami, from a peripheral region of reindeer herders? seriously?
    Last edited by Finn; 05-07-2021 at 05:07 PM.

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    Some food for your debate:

    Petri Kallio
    Department of Finnish, Finno-Ugrian and Scandinavian Studies

    University of Helsinki

    in "The Prehistoric Germanic Loanword Strata in Finnic" (year 20??)

    So what can the Germanic loanwords in Finnic tell us about the linguistic map of prehistoric northern Europe? First of all, they totally destroy the theory
    advocated by some German scholars (e.g. Udolph 1994) that Germanic was spoken nowhere in Scandinavia until the Iron Age (see Koivulehto forthcoming).
    Second, they similarly disprove the idea still cherished by many Russian scholars (e.g. Napol’skix 1990) that Finnic did not arrive in the East Baltic area until
    the Iron Age (see Koivulehto 2004). In brief, the Germanic loanwords in Finnic show that both Germanic and Finnic were present in the Baltic Sea region during
    the Bronze Age.
    in "The Stratigraphy of the Germanic Loanwords in Finnic" (2015)

    Personally, I find nothing wrong with the traditional idea of a Pre- and Palaeo-Germanic speaking Nordic Bronze Age people. First of all, the Nordic BronzeAge culture was directly followed by the Pre-Roman Iron Age cultures, such as the Jastorf culture (ca. 600-1 BC). On the other hand, Finnic is not the only Uralic branch with numerous early Germanic loanwords; those in Saami are equally early (Aikio 2006) and almost equally numerous (Sammallahti 1998: 128-129).
    Objectively speaking, hundreds of Germanic loanwords in both Finnic and Saami should weigh more than only a few stray borrowings between Germanic and Celtic
    (for which see e.g. Schumacher 2007) (*), but not everyone seems to agree.

    In particular, the German onomastician Jürgen Udolph (1994) places the Proto-Germanic homeland in Thuringia and the adjacent areas in Lower Saxonyand Saxony-Anhalt, thus right next to Celtic but very far from both Finnic andSaami. The location he proposes is based exclusively on toponyms, which are however, notoriously ambiguous and very much open to subjective interpretation.For instance, it is easy to find other scholars who have no problem with the idea of
    Pre-/Palaeo-/Proto-Germanic toponyms in Scandinavia (Andersson 1995, 2002;Strandberg 2002a, 2002b) or even in Finland (Koivulehto 1987; Heikkilä 2014). Moreover, Udolph (1994: 916-917) discusses the early Germanic loanwords in Finnic only briefly, and he does not even mention those in Saami. His only reference is to his own teacher Wolfgang P. Schmid (1986: 166-167) who also fails to cite a single primary study on the topic. Thus, it is hardly a wonder that Udolph ends updating the earliest Germanic-Finnic contacts to the beginning of our era. This would have been acceptable half a century ago, but now it sounds as old-fashioned as the rest of his historical linguistic views (for which see especially Bichlmeier 2012, 2013). (...)
    To sum up, the assumption of a Germanic homeland in Central Germany is not at all convincing (cf. also Schrijver 2014), not to mention the notion that Germanic
    would have expanded more than one thousand kilometres to the north during the Pre-Roman Iron Age when global climate conditions became cooler and wetter.As the Germanic maritime vocabulary is a further argument for a coastal rather than an inland origin, I still prefer to locate the Germanic homeland in Denmark and adjacent areas.


    (*) from the same text:

    Remarkably, Finnic also has (Palaeo-)Germanic loanwords that have regular cognates in the Saami (or Lappish) languages, thus seemingly going back to
    Proto-Finno-Saamic usually dated to the early first millennium BC:
    (14) Finnish arpa, North Saami vuorbi ‘lot, share, portion, destiny’ < Proto-FinnoSaamic *arpa ← Palaeo-Germanic *arbha- > Old Norse arfr ‘inheritance’ (LägLoS s.v. arpa).
    (15) Finnish rauta, North Saami ruovdi ‘iron’ < Proto-Finno-Saamic *rawta ← Palaeo-Germanic *raudhan- > Old Norse rauši ‘iron ore’ (LägLoS s.v. rauta).
    Although the actual Iron Age did not begin until around 500 BC, single iron artifacts appeared much earlier (Salo 1992; Hjärthner-Holdar 1993). Hence,
    the Finno-Saamic word for ‘iron’ was most likely borrowed even before the introduction of iron-working and the replacement of the inherited Germanic
    word *raudan- (originally meaning ‘red’) with the Celtic loanword *īsarna- ~ *īzarna- ‘iron’ (Kroonen 2013: 271). This being the case, the Palaeo- and PreGermanic loanwords could roughly be dated to the Nordic Bronze Age (ca.1800-500 BC).
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    One thing more. The destructive criticism by Harald Bichlmeier of Udolph's hydro-etymologies is available on Academia: https://www.academia.edu/5696156/Zum...f_eine_Polemik
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Some food for your debate:

    Petri Kallio
    Department of Finnish, Finno-Ugrian and Scandinavian Studies

    University of Helsinki

    in "The Prehistoric Germanic Loanword Strata in Finnic" (year 20??)



    in "The Stratigraphy of the Germanic Loanwords in Finnic" (2015)
    The only problem is that during this period in the eastern Baltic Sea coast region, only R1a-CTS1211 and R1a-Z92 are found, which are now mainly found in the Balts and Slavs. We can certainly assume that in the Bronze Age one of them was proto-Germanic, and the other Proto-Finnish, but this is too optimistic an assumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    One thing more. The destructive criticism by Harald Bichlmeier of Udolph's hydro-etymologies is available on Academia: https://www.academia.edu/5696156/Zum...f_eine_Polemik
    The area around Thuringia was part of that late Hallstatt-related group which seems to have been independent of both Proto-Germanic Jastorf and Celtic La Tene. Their fortresses seem to have been conquered, their tribes destroyed by both, expanding Germanics from the North and the Celts from the South, with their remains most likely being assimilated. It almost looks as if the Germanics and Celts teamed up with each other to get rid of them.

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