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Thread: How far has Central European Bronze and Iron Ages pushed to the North?

  1. #91
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    Thank you for the link, Finn. I’ll look forward to reading it. Fortunately, the length appears to be fairly manageable for a translator.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  3. #92
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    Finn, I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but you should read too
    "Finnisch-ugrische Sprachen in Kontakt",(Vorträge des Symposiums aus Anlaß des 30-jährigen Bestehens der Finnougristik an der Rijksuniversiteit Groningen 21.—23. November 1996). You'll find inside the very famous text by the Patriarch Jorma Koivulehto, "Die Datierung der germanisch-finnischen Kontakte, revidiert". Here is its conclusion:

    Die Hypothese, wonach das Germanische erst um 500 v. Chr, im Bereich der archäologisch feststellbaren Jastorf-Kultur in Norddeutschland entstanden sei, ist mit den frühen germanisch-ostseefinnischen und germanisch-lappischen Kontakten unvereinbar. Die älteste “Urheimat” der Germanen muß vielmehr in Süd- und Mittelskandinavien angesetzt werden, wie bereits traditionell angenommen wurde. Die Jastorf-Leute in Norddeutschland waren zwar sicher auch Germanen, aber damalige Südgermanen, keine ältesten Urgermanen.
    Proto-Germanic~proto-Celtic contacts are obviously a problem. This problem is of course beyond my competence, but careful examination of the relevant entries in Kroonen's dictionary leads me to believe that very few of these entries are beyond doubt, and even fewer require direct borrowing as the sole explanation. This problem is, however, the only thing that holds me back from seeing in the Late Bronze cultures of southern and middle Sweden the earliest Germanic cultures. Sorry, my friend, for not being able to follow you in your "Udolpho-mania".
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  5. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Finn, I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but you should read too
    "Finnisch-ugrische Sprachen in Kontakt",(Vorträge des Symposiums aus Anlaß des 30-jährigen Bestehens der Finnougristik an der Rijksuniversiteit Groningen 21.—23. November 1996). You'll find inside the very famous text by the Patriarch Jorma Koivulehto, "Die Datierung der germanisch-finnischen Kontakte, revidiert". Here is its conclusion:



    Proto-Germanic~proto-Celtic contacts are obviously a problem. This problem is of course beyond my competence, but careful examination of the relevant entries in Kroonen's dictionary leads me to believe that very few of these entries are beyond doubt, and even fewer require direct borrowing as the sole explanation. This problem is, however, the only thing that holds me back from seeing in the Late Bronze cultures of southern and middle Sweden the earliest Germanic cultures. Sorry, my friend, for not being able to follow you in your "Udolpho-mania".
    Des te meer zielen, des te meer vreugd!

    'Die Jastorf-Leute in Norddeutschland waren zwar sicher auch Germanen, aber damalige Südgermanen, keine ältesten Urgermanen.'

    So we got Urgermanen, Süd Germanen along the Elbe and Süd-Süd Germanen also called the original Germanen along the Rhine. ROFLOL

    The map of Jastorf is not a nitwit product but a project of 2014 by the Archeology Museum Hamburg:



    I'm short of time otherwise I would picture the shape of Jastorf as done in 2014 by the Archeology Museum in the following maps.

    First that of single grave, a project by Quetin Bourgeois et al (oktober 2017 University of Leiden). In which they show that these spots share the same kind of culture and as we know more and more the same kind of kinship. These were the first Indo-Europeans. And I guess we can easily agree that their language was 'embryonal' for the later Germanic language. Very embryonal, but ok.

    You can see clearly that two "hotspots" in nowadays NW Germany and Central-East Germany that are falling within the Jastorf area.


    Then we got the got a map of EBA Unetice done by Meller (Cambridge december 2017):


    Again we see especially in Central-East Germany a spot that is part of the Jastorf area. By the way that spot overlaps also with that of Single Grave/Corded Ware.

    Draw you own conclusions.

    Ergo: we now know more in terms of archeology, genetics and cultures of the past than 35 years ago!

    So the 'Germanic core area was of course in Scandinavia' (quote Jaska) is not so 'of course' as it seems like.....

    Nanu die damalige Südgermanen, möchten ja doch die ältesten Urgermanen gewesen sein Herr Angles! (initiale I choose but I don't want to make it ūbergemanisch
    Last edited by Finn; 05-09-2021 at 07:46 AM.

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  7. #94
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    I grant you that since 1996 water has flowed a lot under the bridges and beer in our stomachs. There was an element of play and provocation in my appeal to Koivulehto. But all the same, between smörbröd and Kartoffelsalat, I remain very undecided. My choice of Normand could be: we start with a small smörbröd with prawns, and we continue with a potato salad, the unit being made by the beer (and on this point, there is no uncertainty ).

    edit: More seriously, Radboud's text is really very good. But it also completely ignores the enormous body of influences, some very early, from Germanic (pre-, proto-, palaeo-) on the proto-Saami and proto-Finnish languages. The vast majority of these borrowings are rigorously traceable (which is far from being true of the possible Celtic borrowings), and specialists can even, thanks in particular to vocalic shifts, date them. Unless we deliberately ignore the teachings of linguistics, we cannot deny that they constitute a weapon of mass destruction against any theory à la Udolph.
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 05-09-2021 at 07:33 AM.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  9. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I grant you that since 1996 water has flowed a lot under the bridges and beer in our stomachs. There was an element of play and provocation in my appeal to Koivulehto. But all the same, between smörbröd and Kartoffelsalat, I remain very undecided. My choice of Normand could be: we start with a small smörbröd with prawns, and we continue with a potato salad, the unit being made by the beer (and on this point, there is no uncertainty ).
    You know may be I'm as stubborn as some Finns .... due to my mothers side from Drenthe, 'they refused to pray for the kidney beans' nothing has changed....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5acaecgJZyU
    Last edited by Finn; 05-09-2021 at 07:33 AM.

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  11. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    You know may be I'm as stubborn as some Finns .... due to my mothers side from Drenthe, 'they refused to pray for the kidney beans' nothing has changed....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5acaecgJZyU
    Hem...my wife uses to tell "quand deux mecs débattent cela dégénère toujours très vite, quel que soit le sujet, en un concours de qui a la plus longue", translation: "when two guys argue, it ends very quickly whatever the topic in deciding which one has the longest cock". It's vexing, but unfortunately, she's often right. On the contrary, we Normands have in France the (bad) reputation to be undecided people. The fact is that we are wary of strong and definitive opinions because we are always tempted to think that reality is always more complex than ideas. Therefore I do revendicate without shame the genuine Normand answer to many questions: "p'tet ben qu'oui, p'tet ben qu'non". Perhaps yes, perhaps no.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Hem...my wife uses to tell "quand deux mecs débattent cela dégénère toujours très vite, quel que soit le sujet, en un concours de qui a la plus longue", translation: "when two guys argue, it ends very quickly whatever the topic in deciding which one has the longest cock". It's vexing, but unfortunately, she's often right. On the contrary, we Normands have in France the (bad) reputation to be undecided people. The fact is that we are wary of strong and definitive opinions because we are always tempted to think that reality is always more complex than ideas. Therefore I do revendicate without shame the genuine Normand answer to many questions: "p'tet ben qu'oui, p'tet ben qu'non". Perhaps yes, perhaps no.
    I dunno.

    North Dutch: iconoclastic, anti-autoritair etc etc but enough stereotypes for today.

    Important for the discussion: play the ball not the man! #fairplay

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  15. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I'm short of time otherwise I would picture the shape of Jastorf as done in 2014 by the Archeology Museum in the following maps.
    I would be cautious with "maps of Jastorf" though, because sometimes the borderlines are tricky and what's even more, timing means a lot. Because Jastorf did expand Southward, just like La Tene expanded Northward. But at the "starting point", and this is in my opinion the true Proto-Germanic stage, before the Northern Iron Age groups developed, before Eastern sub- and independent formations emerged, before the Jastorf central formation expanded South, what was the actual core distribution area of Jastrof. And that's the point, because we have a transitional or mixed zone in the Hallstatt phase, which later has its own character, in Central Germany, but even later again got eaten up.

    This zone was originally very important because it transmitted iron technology to the groups which developed Jastorf.

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    How far has Central European Bronze Age/ Iron Age people pushed to the north? Probably far, all the way to Scandinavia. The question is: when exactly? I think that the big push has something to do with the collapse of the Unetice culture, which was around 1600 BC. For example: if we look at strontium isotope results, combined with radiocarbon dating efforts from Denmark, there is a clear shift in migration patterns from around 1600 BC onwards, according to this article:

    We have conducted a multi-analytical investigation on the largest data-set to date, composed of 88 individuals excavated from 37 localities within present-day Denmark and dating to the 3rd and 2nd millennia BC in order to map human mobility. Our large study allowed us to observe the variations of mobility throughout this period. The strontium isotope results, combined with radiocarbon dating efforts, indicate a clear shift in migration patterns from around 1600 BC onwards, distinguished by mobility from a large variety of regions potentially with diversified and different geological backgrounds (and potentially more distant from present-day Denmark). This change in migration pattern appears to have occurred during a key period when the Nordic Bronze Age society flourished parallel to the emergence of the long-distance trade of metals and when society experienced a hitherto unseen economic growth suggesting that these aspects are closely related.




    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    edit: More seriously, Radboud's text is really very good. But it also completely ignores the enormous body of influences, some very early, from Germanic (pre-, proto-, palaeo-) on the proto-Saami and proto-Finnish languages. The vast majority of these borrowings are rigorously traceable (which is far from being true of the possible Celtic borrowings), and specialists can even, thanks in particular to vocalic shifts, date them. Unless we deliberately ignore the teachings of linguistics, we cannot deny that they constitute a weapon of mass destruction against any theory à la Udolph.
    I didn't write that article; I only showed a few articles from that website in the past. But I do agree that it's a very good article ( authors name= Olivier van Renswoude). He has also excellent texts about the Frisii etc.

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    @Radboud: I totally agree with you and think that overall, the Bronze Age and mostly Unetice related impact was the stronger one. However, I also think that from within the Nordic Bronze Age, one relatively more Southern group, under the strong influence of Hallstatt-related Central German groups, made a second big push, reaching, directly and indirectly, Scandinavia too. And the latter, even though coming from the NBA networks most likely, where the Proto-Germanics. This won't be easy to catch autosomally at all and not perfectly by general haplogroups probably, but only if having more detailed, higher resolution samples with exact subclades. But a lot depends in this case on where the majority of R1b-U106 and the modern I1 carriers came from. These are key.

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