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Thread: How far has Central European Bronze and Iron Ages pushed to the North?

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    No it's quite impolite it is seeing your own navel or belly button or....as the center of the world. That is already the case (English as the lingua franca) . So I will put some effort to make as less possible faults. But I can't give a 100% guarantee.
    I can’t give a 100% guarantee either and it’s my own language. Personally, I have no problem understanding your English. Occasionally a situation may arise, like the one above, where a need for clarification is called for but those are very rare. Anyway, I just thought I’d throw in my 2 cents. For what it’s worth.
    Last edited by JMcB; 05-17-2021 at 03:20 AM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  3. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    I can’t give a 100% guarantee either and it’s my own language. Personally, I have no problem understanding your English. Occasionally a situation may arise, like the one above, where a need for clarification is called for but those are very rare. Anyway, I just thought I’d throw in my 2 cents. For what it’s worth.
    Thanks JmcB!
    Even if it may not seem like but at this point I'm somewhat insecure. May be for some others a reason to keep quit.....
    On the other hand I admit it's frustrating too because I have a kind of urge to react fast and as not native speaker this can be annoying (my bad). And in some way it can be distracting because I know a 'sloppy' text can give a wrong impression. So I'm aware (at least try too #trialanderror
    In that sense it's fine to get some positive feedback.

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    Thank you Michal for time ad effort, clear story!!!

    1) the Swedish Battle Axe genetic profile was different from that of the subsequent Swedish Late Neolithic population (with the latter showing less steppe DNA and resembling the modern Swedes more closely), 2) the Unetice people were different from both the Swedish Battle Axe folk and the Swedish Late Neolithic, and finally 3) the genetic impact of the Unetice folk on Swedish LN seems to have been either very small or non-existent, as the modern Swedes are even more different from Unetice than the pre-Unetice Swedish LN people.




    In what sense is the West Eurasian different from the North European one? Is this more than zoom in, zoom out?

    I think your conclusion is too gross.

    Because in this reasoning not only Unetice, but even more Battle Axe has had less or no impact.....is this real?

    First of all the isotopes tell another story:


    This gives the impression of an Unetice impact during EBA.
    How do they correspond with each other?

    And why is the impression of the isotopes underlined by archeologist that from about 2000 BC the people in SW Scania builded houses like in Unetice? And had clothes like in Unetice? And also the impact as described by Meller (2017) that after the collaps of Unetice (1600 BC) people went from the core to the periphery?

    And are all LN samples 100% sure indigenous?

    And then I get to the core because we see a very big time lap. Ok at first we see a sequence Battle Axe> LN> Unetice> a gap of 3600 years (!) and then modern Sweden. Time enough to move on the map.....
    Last edited by Finn; 05-17-2021 at 08:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I have to go now, and will not be back before the evening. I'm waiting for Euler's book, that a German friend has sent to me. I'll see whether this review, found on Amazon, is right:
    I'm curios what will be the reaction. The 'forte' of this is imo the 'multidisciplinary' approach..... Not language only as such but in broader perspective.

  7. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    In what sense is the West Eurasian different from the North European one? Is this more than zoom in, zoom out?
    No, its a different focus, on different PC. The Northern European PCA concentrates on specific modern Northern European PCA of G25, at the expense of other variables. Which is why it might "overlook" signficant aberrations outside of the current variation. This however must not be the case at all, but it could be the case. And the further away from modern Northern Europeans, or even modern Europeans in general, the worse it gets. Like if there are increased levels of any sort of extra-European or ancient components no longer as widespread, it gets messy. That doesn't mean that the West Eurasian PCA is the best at all, but it grasps something the Northern European was obviously missing.

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  9. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    In what sense is the West Eurasian different from the North European one? Is this more than zoom in, zoom out?
    Our genetic profiles are multidimensional, but in each PCA we only use two dimensions (or two principal components), usually the ones that are responsible for most of the observed variability between the analyzed samples. Importantly, what makes, for example, the Poles and the Swedes very different from the Armenians or from the Palestinians is not exactly the same what makes the Poles and Swedes different from each other, so depending on what is the scope of the analysis (or the range of the analyzed populations), we will use a different set of dimensions/principal components to illustrate the most crucial differences between the analyzed samples/populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Because in this reasoning not only Unetice, but even more Battle Axe has had less or no impact.....is this real?
    Why? When you include the pre-Battle Axe populations from the Mesolithic and Neolithic Scandinavia (ie. the samples that were not shown/marked on the above PCA), you will clearly see that it was exactly the Battle Axe Culture that had by far the strongest impact on the subsequent populations in Scandinavia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    First of all the isotopes tell another story:


    This gives the impression of an Unetice impact during EBA.
    How do they correspond with each other?
    On which basis are you claiming that the above results suggests there was a strong Unetice impact in Scandinavia during the EBA? Firstly, I don't know which part of Scandinavia are those samples from, but the diagram shows that it was rather a significant influx of people with the higher strontium ratio, so this suggests some migrations from further north (including potentially Finland) rather than from Germany/Central Europe (see the below map showing the strontium ratios for different parts of Europe). Secondly, there are significant differences between particular parts of Scandinavia (regarding the strontium ratio), so at least some of those changes shown above could correspond to the hypothetical intra-Scandinavian migrations.





    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    And why is the impression of the isotopes underlined by archeologist that from about 2000 BC the people in SW Scania builded houses like in Unetice? And had clothes like in Unetice? And also the impact as described by Meller (2017) that after the collaps of Unetice (1600 BC) people went from the core to the periphery?
    Firstly, most of those changes could have been transmitted culturally with very little migrations from the continental Europe. Secondly, the genetic impact of those hypothetical migrations from the South could have been much less significant than you assume (especially in Sweden and Norway).


    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    And are all LN samples 100% sure indigenous?
    Unfortunately, I don't know this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    And then I get to the core because we see a very big time lap. Ok at first we see a sequence Battle Axe> LN> Unetice> a gap of 3600 years (!) and then modern Sweden. Time enough to move on the map.....
    This is why I wrote that we need more Bronze Age and Iron Age samples from Scandinavia to get a better picture of all those processes associated with cultural transformations in Scandinavia. However, let me remind you that the only Swedish BA sample available at G25 does not show any shift towards the Unetice population (when compared to the earlier Swedish LN individuals).

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  11. #267
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    In reaction to what Michal just wrote, I must add that for many months I have been using Sweden Battle Axe to model North Europeans with qpAdm. I'm not going to risk my life on this as I suspect a lot of things are going on that I can't handle, like the quality of the samples, but for what it's worth this group gives by far the best fits, especially with the Scandinavians, the British, and even the French from the northwest. In fact, I think that I would fall from my chair if one day it would be proved that Central European groups have had a strong genetic impact in Scandinavia.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Merci Michal.

    Short of time so only a first reaction.

    Why? When you include the pre-Battle Axe populations from the Mesolithic and Neolithic Scandinavia (ie. the samples that were not shown/marked on the above PCA), you will clearly see that it was exactly the Battle Axe Culture that had by far the strongest impact on the subsequent populations in Scandinavia.
    The why is in the map. Battle Axe is further away from modern Swedes than Unetice. For what it's worth of course.

    On of the paper mentions this:
    In sum, our study provides new insights into mobility during a crucial point in time at the beginning of the Nordic Bronze Age. This mobility might have caused a rapid homogenization of gene pools.


    If I followed eurogenes very well I get the impression that Unetice and other Corded derived populations like Battle Axe come close to each other, same kind of genetic sources.....But correct me if I'm wrong.

    The impression I get from latest archeological and genetic papers is that in SW Scania about 2000 BC there was a situation that we could label as a "Unetice colony".

    Of course when we want to confirm this we have to have a bunch of samples from that period.....and place.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-17-2021 at 09:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    The why is in the map. Battle Axe is further away from modern Swedes than Unetice. For what it's worth of course.
    This is because the Battle Axe people were the newcomers from the East who were still very rich in steppe DNA, so only after they merged with some locals in Scandinavia this gave rise to the Scandinavian LN population. By contrast to the Battle Axe folk (who were a subgroup of the rapidly expanding CWC population), the Unetice people were not the original newcomers from the East but their descendants who already got a significant local (non-steppe) admixture (although apparently a bit less than the Scandinavian LN), so this explains the positions of all those three ancient populations on the West Eurasian PCA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    In reaction to what Michal just wrote, I must add that for many months I have been using Sweden Battle Axe to model North Europeans with qpAdm. I'm not going to risk my life on this as I suspect a lot of things are going on that I can't handle, like the quality of the samples, but for what it's worth this group gives by far the best fits, especially with the Scandinavians, the British, and even the French from the northwest. In fact, I think that I would fall from my chair if one day it would be proved that Central European groups have had a strong genetic impact in Scandinavia.
    That's wide stretched comes Battle Axe closer to nowadays Scandic, British NW France than to Unetice? And are we able to split for example Battle Axe very well from Unetice Poland or Germany? I know asking is easier than answering.....nevertheless thanks in advance!

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