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Thread: How far has Central European Bronze and Iron Ages pushed to the North?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    This is because the Battle Axe people were the newcomers from the East who were still very rich in steppe DNA, so only after they merged with some locals in Scandinavia this gave rise to the Scandinavian LN population. By contrast to the Battle Axe folk (who were a subgroup of the rapidly expanding CWC population), the Unetice people were not the original newcomers from the East but their descendants who already got a significant local (non-steppe) admixture (although apparently a bit less than the Scandinavian LN), so this explains the positions of all those three ancient populations on the West Eurasian PCA.
    Ok I could ask the same question as I just did towards Angles ^^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    This is because the Battle Axe people were the newcomers from the East who were still very rich in steppe DNA, so only after they merged with some locals in Scandinavia this gave rise to the Scandinavian LN population. By contrast to the Battle Axe folk (who were a subgroup of the rapidly expanding CWC population), the Unetice people were not the original newcomers from the East but their descendants who already got a significant local (non-steppe) admixture (although apparently a bit less than the Scandinavian LN), so this explains the positions of all those three ancient populations on the West Eurasian PCA.
    And an add, too much multitasking today....

    You reasoned that Unetice could not have influenced the modern Sweden because on the Eurasia it knew no overlap.
    Still the overlap with Battle Axe is on the map even less, it's positioned further away!

    So can be my bad. But as Battle Axe is further away on the map and Angles and you state it has still much influence on the modern Swedes, why can't this be the case with regard to Unetice?
    Last edited by Finn; 05-17-2021 at 11:18 AM.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    And an add, too much multasking today....

    You reasoned that Unetice could not have influenced the modern Sweden because on the Eurasia it knew no overlap.
    Still the overlap with Battle Axe is on the map even less, it's positioned further away!

    So can be my bad. But as Battle Axe is further away on the map and Angles and you state it has still much influence on the modern Swedes, why can't this be the case with regard to Unetice?
    I guess the variation in the North might have exceeded that in the relative South at times, as even much later samples suggest, so in the end the whole debate and iusse won't be solved by autosomal analyses alone. That's even more true since we don't have to expact an overly huge autosomal impact anyway, but primarily an influx of elites and specialists, so a the maximum a partial replacement, primarily on the paternal side.
    Its like it is in the Balkans and unlike the BB expansion in Britain, with the top layers becoming replaced or at least altered, with some effect on the population as a whole, but not like Uneticians did replace the Northern people. That's even evident from the uniparentals, because the pre-Germanic or para-Germanic lineages of the North look to a large degree also rather BAC-CWC and BBC derived. In the end I would guess that a huge part of the story will be told by I1, either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I guess the variation in the North might have exceeded that in the relative South at times, as even much later samples suggest, so in the end the whole debate and iusse won't be solved by autosomal analyses alone. That's even more true since we don't have to expact an overly huge autosomal impact anyway, but primarily an influx of elites and specialists, so a the maximum a partial replacement, primarily on the paternal side.
    Its like it is in the Balkans and unlike the BB expansion in Britain, with the top layers becoming replaced or at least altered, with some effect on the population as a whole, but not like Uneticians did replace the Northern people. That's even evident from the uniparentals, because the pre-Germanic or para-Germanic lineages of the North look to a large degree also rather BAC-CWC and BBC derived. In the end I would guess that a huge part of the story will be told by I1, either way.
    Agree that could be a 'straw'.

    Nevertheless I don't consider Unetice as very 'southern', genetically seen it is basically a branch of Corded Ware isn't it?

    What is imo important to consider, and imo that's more or less the key, it was in EBA not an immobile situation. Like I said seen what the archeologist have found in Scania it had features of a "Unetice colony". I guess we are past the stadium that this can be denied. With hotspots along the Oder, Elbe, Weser pretty North Central/ Central-East. From the mound of the Oder it's just a quite short boat trip to South Scania and and neighbored Danish Isles.

    So it's no longer a question if there was an impact from Unetice on NW Europe incl. Scandinavia, but more a question how big or small was the impact.....Or?
    Last edited by Finn; 05-17-2021 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I guess the variation in the North might have exceeded that in the relative South at times, as even much later samples suggest, so in the end the whole debate and iusse won't be solved by autosomal analyses alone. That's even more true since we don't have to expact an overly huge autosomal impact anyway, but primarily an influx of elites and specialists, so a the maximum a partial replacement, primarily on the paternal side.
    Its like it is in the Balkans and unlike the BB expansion in Britain, with the top layers becoming replaced or at least altered, with some effect on the population as a whole, but not like Uneticians did replace the Northern people. That's even evident from the uniparentals, because the pre-Germanic or para-Germanic lineages of the North look to a large degree also rather BAC-CWC and BBC derived. In the end I would guess that a huge part of the story will be told by I1, either way.
    A side remark. Before Corona I was at an exhibition at the Frisian Museum in Leeuwarden about the relationship between the Frisians and Vikings.

    A part of it was a grand map not a map we are used to but a map seen from the North Sea position. That was really an eye opener!



    When you picture this of the Baltic Sea and the big rivers I guess that's really enlightening.

    Because on the North European plain trips over land, no roads lots of wood, marshes etc. is traveling a hell of a job. Sea's and rivers were the highways of the past.

    But hey ....i'm talking to R....man So needless remark.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-17-2021 at 12:14 PM.

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  8. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Agree that could be a 'straw'.

    Nevertheless I don't consider Unetice as very 'southern', genetically seen it is basically a branch of Corded Ware isn't it?
    Unetice itself is a mystery and doesn't look like it was one homogeneous group of people. It seems to have been constituted by three elements: Eastern Bell Beakers, Corded Ware/Epi-Corded Ware people and possibly more Southern Carpathian shifted elements. We need more samples to get a better graps on them, and they might vary a lot from one place to another. Which is also why it remains possible that even I1 was present among them, for example, we don't know from the few samples we have at the moment. There are groups which are easy to target, you need 3 samples and you basically know everything about them, even with 1.000 more, not much might change, like with North Western Bell Beakers or Yamnaya core groups. But Uneticians are different, they can't be categorised that easily, because they approach a proto-state or even real state structure which might have been, at least in some regions, rather multi-ethnic even. That's a fundamental difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Unetice itself is a mystery and doesn't look like it was one homogeneous group of people. It seems to have been constituted by three elements: Eastern Bell Beakers, Corded Ware/Epi-Corded Ware people and possibly more Southern Carpathian shifted elements. We need more samples to get a better graps on them, and they might vary a lot from one place to another. Which is also why it remains possible that even I1 was present among them, for example, we don't know from the few samples we have at the moment. There are groups which are easy to target, you need 3 samples and you basically know everything about them, even with 1.000 more, not much might change, like with North Western Bell Beakers or Yamnaya core groups. But Uneticians are different, they can't be categorised that easily, because they approach a proto-state or even real state structure which might have been, at least in some regions, rather multi-ethnic even. That's a fundamental difference.
    Ok. I'm kind of confused. Because you emphasize a fuzzy situation.

    Davidski states on the other hand:
    which suggests that they harbor very similar ratios of ancient genetic components and probably share relatively recent ancestry.
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/...as-in-pod.html

    The vast majority of people of Central, Eastern and Northern European origin - that is, mostly the speakers of Balto-Slavic, Germanic and Celtic languages - would also land in this part of the plot.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-17-2021 at 12:13 PM.

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    @ Michal

    Firstly, most of those changes could have been transmitted culturally with very little migrations from the continental Europe. Secondly, the genetic impact of those hypothetical migrations from the South could have been much less significant than you assume (especially in Sweden and Norway).
    Indeed! Question is difficult to answer indeed. But I guess it was not a situation in which there was no migration (from CE).

    On which basis are you claiming that the above results suggests there was a strong Unetice impact in Scandinavia during the EBA? Firstly, I don't know which part of Scandinavia are those samples from, but the diagram shows that it was rather a significant influx of people with the higher strontium ratio, so this suggests some migrations from further north (including potentially Finland) rather than from Germany/Central Europe (see the below map showing the strontium ratios for different parts of Europe). Secondly, there are significant differences between particular parts of Scandinavia (regarding the strontium ratio), so at least some of those changes shown above could correspond to the hypothetical intra-Scandinavian migrations.
    Clever thanks! So the Nordic Bronze Age started in the far North? (champagne in the Jaska residence Lapland and Finland as the Bronze Age powerhouse!). Just kidding.

    But also remarkable a migration from Unetice area to SW Scania and the Danish Isles is on the same level! mmmmm... Unetice could 'hide' partly in the 2200-1800 range....but as indigenous Scania and Unetice area come together it's hardly or not to split.


    This is why I wrote that we need more Bronze Age and Iron Age samples from Scandinavia to get a better picture of all those processes associated with cultural transformations in Scandinavia. However, let me remind you that the only Swedish BA sample available at G25 does not show any shift towards the Unetice population (when compared to the earlier Swedish LN individuals).
    That's the anthrogenica 'running gag' more samples.... Undeniable true.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-17-2021 at 12:43 PM.

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    Tentative conclusion:

    1. There was a migration from the Unetice area's to NW Europe/Southern Scandinavia, but how big or small the impact was is hard to say.
    2. Genetically seen the Unetice genetic profile is hard to split from the other Northern, Corded influenced folks. So this makes it even more difficult to make an impression of the Unetice genetic impact.

    Agree or?

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    Normandie Orkney Netherlands Friesland East Frisia Finland
    qpfstats > qpAdm transversions only

    right pops:
    Cameroon_SMA.DG
    Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
    Czech_Vestonice16
    Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published
    Iberia_ElMiron
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG
    Georgia_Kotias.SG
    Iran_GanjDareh_N
    Kazakhstan_Eneolithic_Botai.SG
    Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic.SG
    Serbia_Mesolithic_IronGates
    Anatolia_N_published
    Jordan_PPNB_published
    DevilsCave_N.SG
    Kolyma_M.SG
    Russia_HG_Tyumen
    Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic

    left pops:
    finn_nl
    Sweden_BAC
    Sweden_Megalithic.SG

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 17 17.844 0.398768 0.852 0.148
    01 1 18 22.834 0.197053 1.000 0.000


    left pops:
    finn_nl
    Germany_EBA_Unetice
    Sweden_Megalithic.SG

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 17 29.056 0.0340155 0.862 0.138
    01 1 18 34.677 0.0103759 1.000 0.000


    Just a naive observation of course, that doesn't prove anything. But obviously "for qpAdm" Battle Axe and German Unetice are not equivalent.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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