Page 55 of 60 FirstFirst ... 5455354555657 ... LastLast
Results 541 to 550 of 594

Thread: How far has Central European Bronze and Iron Ages pushed to the North?

  1. #541
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    5,726
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Apologies for my late reply. I was already aware of these two papers. But anyway, these papers don't really suggest a migration from Central Europe: they rather suggest trade and exchange between Nordic LN & EBA and early Únětice Bronze Age communities. Besides, we don't have isotope results from the people who have lived in Almhov, do we?

    No they suggest a heavy influence. It's an archeological paper not so much aimed to give the genetic impact. And as you know o ly the last years many archeologist do not only consider the pots but also the people.

    The possibility of EBA immigration is real, that confirmation did I got from Kristiansen (and Fokkens and Butler already made explicit the suggestion of EBA immigration).
    Last edited by Finn; 06-10-2021 at 10:15 AM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Radboud (06-10-2021)

  3. #542
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    5,726
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Apologies for my late reply. I was already aware of these two papers. But anyway, these papers don't really suggest a migration from Central Europe: they rather suggest trade and exchange between Nordic LN & EBA and early Únětice Bronze Age communities. Besides, we don't have isotope results from the people who have lived in Almhov, do we?

    I must add myself, the second paper is explicit about migration.

    The author Karin Frei: "Our data indicates a clear shift in human mobility at the breakthrough point of the Nordic Bronze Age, when an unprecedented rich period in southern Scandinavia emerged. This suggests to us that these aspects might have been closely related."

    Clear statement imo.

  4. #543
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    5,726
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Apologies for my late reply. I was already aware of these two papers. But anyway, these papers don't really suggest a migration from Central Europe: they rather suggest trade and exchange between Nordic LN & EBA and early Únětice Bronze Age communities. Besides, we don't have isotope results from the people who have lived in Almhov, do we?
    In some sense I do the job also for a clarification of R1b U106, they were imo the spreaders of the Bronze Age....."congrats"!

  5. #544
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    5,726
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    After several reconsiderations I put my cards fully on nr 10 on the map of Mitch:

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    THE GATA-WIESELBURG CULTURE as the EBA culture that influenced Sögel-Wohlde c.q. the range North-Dutch- Jutland in 1800-1600. The Sögel warriors were most probably an offshoot of this culture. Why do I prefer this one above my other old time favorite Unetice?

    I admit they come really close but why the Gata-Wieselburg (GW) culture. I admit I can produce dazzling thoughts but hopefully I can make this assumable.

    I have two pre-assumptions:
    1. Sögel-Wohlde is the result of immigrants that caused a break around 1800 BC. This is more (prof. Fokkens) or a bit less (prof Butler) confirmed.
    2. The Sögel-Wohlde and the area of the highest amount of R1b U106 are overlapping. That is imo no coincidence, seen the immigration I suppose a connection between the immigration of Sõgel-Warriors and the founder effect of R1b U106. Also seen the fact that before 1800 BC there is no single R1b U106 sample. But even Davidski if is right there is a Dutch BB with R1b 106 (rumor) the connection with the GW culture makes sense.

    The GW culture is even more than Unetice the hub between the PC Steppe and Central Europe (and beyond), Alexandra Krenn-Leeb:



    The linguist Kuzmenko gives here the key clue:
    Many artifacts of the Sögel-Wolde culture, compare, for example,
    the famous outfit of the so-called princess from Fallingbostel,
    correspond to the artifacts of the culture prevalent in the areas
    lower Austria and Hungary (Probst 1996: 86–88).

    Wiki:
    Typical grave goods in men's graves in the Sögel-Wohlde district are bronze short swords and edge ridge axes, and more rarely Sögeler daggers. The two short swords, after which the Sögel type was first described, were discovered in 1898 when the new path from Spahn to Werpeloh was being built. As has been proven over a large area, there is a connection between the short swords of the cultural area and swords from eastern Hungary at about the same time, as evidenced by their type, shape and decoration. Characteristics of the Sögel type are the round staple plate and a striking decoration with groups of lines, dotted lines and bow garlands. In contrast to the Sögel sword, the short sword of the Wohlde type was provided with a trapezoidal staple plate. This type of sword was first described in 1937. The short swords of the Wohlde type are derived from Hungarian short swords with a trapezoid grip plate. But they are also mixed with features of the Sögel type (Toppenstedt, Harburg district).

    Perhaps the swords were made by craftsmen from the Moravian-Hungarian region. This is indicated by small clay nozzles found in settlements and graves. The clay nozzles, as the mouthpieces of the bellows, are evidence of the existence of melting furnaces in the early Bronze Age of northwest Germany. The scattering of their finds extends from Hungary through central Germany to northwestern Europe, through southern Germany to northern Italy and in eastern Europe to Kalinovka, north of Volgograd. The grave of a bronze caster was excavated near Kalinovka, which contained handicraft equipment. The bronze casting is also documented. One already knew the casting in one or two shell form or in a lost form (lost wax process).
    The GW culture is situated in east Austria, West Hungary and West Slowakia.

    And the 'princes of Fallingbostel' (Lüneberger Heath/ Lower Saxony) in full Gata Wieselburg culture wear! Probst:


    The 'chieftain of Drouwen' (Drenthe/ North Dutch) had spiral earrings, like this one from the Gata Wieselburg culture
    https://www.documenta-pannonica.eu/o...-from-zsennye/

    See also this fine description:
    https://mobilitas.ri.abtk.hu/?media=...krol-2&lang=en

    GW is also the culture that contained R1b M269 around 1800 BC (Allentoft 2015)! And the R1b U106 from Jimonice/Prague (2000 BC) is not that fare.....

    It's known that the GW culture is an offshoot of the Bell Beakers. Davidski proposes that Bell Beakers from the North Sea even reached the Lech Valley. This quote supposes that this could also be the case for the area of GW:

    Previously archeology considered the Bell-beaker people to have lived only within a limited territory of the Carpathian Basin and for a short time, without mixing with the local population. Although there are very few evaluable anthropological finds, the appearance of the characteristic planoccipital (flattened back) Taurid type in the populations of some later cultures (e.g. Kisapostag and Gáta–Wieselburg cultures) suggested a mixture with the local population contradicting such archaeological theories. According to archaeology, the populational groups of the Bell-beakers also took part in the formation of the Gáta-Wieselburg culture on the western fringes of the Carpathian Basin, which could be confirmed with the anthropological Bell Beaker series in Moravia and Germany.
    So in fact is seems like a continuous flux and reflux, within the same network!

    Single Grave goes from Central Europe to NW Europe, Bell Beakers go from NW Europe to Central Europe, and Gata Wieselburg goes from Central Europe to NW Europe.

    By the way the pre-Italic is also there because the GW culture seems also have migrated to Northern Italy, they founded the Polada culture, see:

    Just some thoughts....feel free to comment. All preliminary of course.....
    Last edited by Finn; 07-01-2021 at 09:35 AM.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (06-30-2021)

  7. #545
    Registered Users
    Posts
    337
    Sex
    Location
    Coventry, Rhode Island
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP445
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2b

    England Germany Palatinate Italy Sicily Ireland Munster Acadia Mercia
    10? For what? Certainly not the home of proto-German, more likely the home of proto-Illyrian. No, no, no, proto-German came out of the Single Grave Culture. Denmark, northwest Germany, northern Netherlands. This is like saying proto-Celtic is from Galicia in northwest Spain. Unetice culture was mostly culture and lesser gene flow, save for DF27 and U152 clades entering the German gene pool, which at its core was U106, I1, R1a-L664 and R1a-Z284. The Iron Age Cold Epoch then contracted the early Germanic culture, mixing the various dialects (para-Celtic in the south, cousin language to proto-Balto-Slavic in the north), causing the sound shifts characteristic of Germanic, which then expanded greatly during the following Roman Warm Period.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to JoeyP37 For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (07-01-2021)

  9. #546
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    5,726
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    10? For what? Certainly not the home of proto-German, more likely the home of proto-Illyrian. No, no, no, proto-German came out of the Single Grave Culture. Denmark, northwest Germany, northern Netherlands. This is like saying proto-Celtic is from Galicia in northwest Spain. Unetice culture was mostly culture and lesser gene flow, save for DF27 and U152 clades entering the German gene pool, which at its core was U106, I1, R1a-L664 and R1a-Z284. The Iron Age Cold Epoch then contracted the early Germanic culture, mixing the various dialects (para-Celtic in the south, cousin language to proto-Balto-Slavic in the north), causing the sound shifts characteristic of Germanic, which then expanded greatly during the following Roman Warm Period.
    I don't claim to sketch the whole proto-Germanic trajectory. What I do 'claim' is that Sögel-Wohlde is a Gata Wieselburg offshoot. And of course Sögel-Wohlde is not an unimportant part in the proto-Germanic 'story'.

    And of course is Single Grave the core. But between Single Grave (2850 BC) and IA it is still a long road, with lots of influences, flux and reflux. The Bell Beakers went 'back' to Central-East Europe for example....

    And not to to forget that Single Grave had a Central European departure point!

    The (battle) gear of Sögel-Wohlde is strictly pointing at the Gata Wieselburg culture.

    And last but not least linguist like Kuzmenko and Euler and earlier on Kuhn and Gysseling who stated that around the North Sea they spoke in (E)BA a language with a pre-Italic touch. That is also pointing at GW-culture (as it is also founding for the North Italian Polada BA culture).

    How do you explain this all otherwise?
    Last edited by Finn; 07-01-2021 at 10:13 AM.

  10. #547
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    5,726
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    In Northern Italy, two small gold wire spiral rings were found in an EBA fossa grave cemetery near Verona, at Gazzo Veronese, under the skulls of two skeletons; they were also part of a headdress (List 1, n. 2). The fossa tombs appear to contain either poor or no grave goods at all, but might have also been looted, a frequent practice in contemporary Austrian cemeteries where similar gold finds were common (Neugebauer-Maresch and Neugebauer, 1988/89).
    https://journals.openedition.org/archeosciences/2066

    And the ones of the chieftain of Drouwen, Drenthe/ North Dutch 1800 BC:


    Last edited by Finn; 07-03-2021 at 09:57 AM.

  11. #548
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,733
    Sex
    Location
    Normandy
    Ethnicity
    northwesterner
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-BY3604-Z275
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a1

    Normandie Orkney Netherlands Friesland East Frisia Finland
    Finn, I don't need to remind you that the presence of alien artefacts does not necessarily mean that of alien populations. For example, the presence in the NBA, and at a very singular status, of objects clearly resulting from Mediterranean cultures (such as the folding chair or the single-edged razor) obviously does not imply that populations issued from the Mediterranean regions were present in Sweden around 1600. In the case which concerns you, it seems to me that Sögel-Wohle on one side and Gata-Wiesemburg on the other are not far from being the extremities of the main route of the unetician commercial network (if I say nonsense, correct me). Is there anything that suggests there is more than just importing artefacts (with perhaps their significance, status, symbolic function, etc)?
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to anglesqueville For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (07-03-2021),  uintah106 (07-03-2021)

  13. #549
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    5,726
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Finn, I don't need to remind you that the presence of alien artefacts does not necessarily mean that of alien populations. For example, the presence in the NBA, and at a very singular status, of objects clearly resulting from Mediterranean cultures (such as the folding chair or the single-edged razor) obviously does not imply that populations issued from the Mediterranean regions were present in Sweden around 1600. In the case which concerns you, it seems to me that Sögel-Wohle on one side and Gata-Wiesemburg on the other are not far from being the extremities of the main route of the unetician commercial network (if I say nonsense, correct me). Is there anything that suggests there is more than just importing artefacts (with perhaps their significance, status, symbolic function, etc)?
    As such you are right.

    Nevertheless the 'spiral rings' are not an isolated thing, there is a pattern of things that point at Gata-Wieselburg.

    We got the swords, the clothes of the elite woman of Fallingbostel, the linguist that point at the pre-Italic touch of the "NW block" etc etc.

    The connections were obviously there during BB times (at that time NW> Central).

    So no necessities but sure possibilities that from
    the Gáta-Wieselburg culture on the western fringes of the Carpathian Basin
    there was in EBA a '(re-)flux' to the North Sea.
    Last edited by Finn; 07-03-2021 at 02:53 PM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     anglesqueville (07-03-2021)

  15. #550
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    5,726
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Finn, I don't need to remind you that the presence of alien artefacts does not necessarily mean that of alien populations. For example, the presence in the NBA, and at a very singular status, of objects clearly resulting from Mediterranean cultures (such as the folding chair or the single-edged razor) obviously does not imply that populations issued from the Mediterranean regions were present in Sweden around 1600. In the case which concerns you, it seems to me that Sögel-Wohle on one side and Gata-Wiesemburg on the other are not far from being the extremities of the main route of the unetician commercial network (if I say nonsense, correct me). Is there anything that suggests there is more than just importing artefacts (with perhaps their significance, status, symbolic function, etc)?

    I really think that spiral rings and clothes that were not a little but exactly those of Gata-Wieselburg is nothing like nowadays no lady gaga's, no fashionata's

    These features were not general EBA: GW is not exactly Unetice.

    I can't imagine that a in EBA a woman from the North Sea area thinks wait what can I wear today, hey the GW dress is en vogue....

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     anglesqueville (07-03-2021)

Page 55 of 60 FirstFirst ... 5455354555657 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 93
    Last Post: 07-23-2020, 05:39 PM
  2. Replies: 121
    Last Post: 07-08-2020, 07:59 AM
  3. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-22-2020, 03:10 PM
  4. Impact of Unetice or Central European Bronze Age!?
    By Finn in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-08-2018, 01:12 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-08-2017, 05:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •