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    How much Middle Eastern ancestry do Ashkenazim have?

    From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?

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    Wikipedia says “Citing autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East."” I don’t know how accurate this is though

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitterfruit609 View Post
    Wikipedia says ďCiting autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East."Ē I donít know how accurate this is though
    Yep. That's somewhat accurate

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    I have seen only one persons autosomal data first-hand IRL, which is difficult to draw any wide conclusions from, however I think that the primary obstacle to answering this interesting question accurately is that Italian / Rhine Valley "Ashkenazics" were not (historically) the same population autsomally as Eastern / Steppe "Ashkenazics".

    Creating an artificial 'lump-Ashkenazic' category throws bad data, from what I have seen. The Caucasus / Steppe population needs to be moved into a separate category, or you will over-assign Levantine origin - Also, studies that attempt to compare existing modern populations with an artificial autosomal composite, throw bad data, whereas comparing modern populations to ancient samples yields accurate data.

    "a principle component analysis (PCA), the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins and marginally overlapped with Arabian Jews, whereas AJs clustered away from Levantine individuals and adjacent to Neolithic Anatolians and Late Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans."
    This conclusion is anecdotally reinforced by what is probably good measurement offered by a Rabbinical lineage study that was created and assisted within the Rabbincal community, that tested 13 major Rabbinical lines -

    Five (5) of these are either certainly not of Levantine population origin, or highly unlikely to be, given that they are most common ancestries in Steppe / Caucasus peoples, Eight (8) of these are certainly Hg that can commonly be found among Levantine peoples, but most of which can also be found among Iranic, Turkic, Kurdish peoples.

    One of these lineages is interesting because it is V88 originating from (then) Muslim-controlled Spain, that later moves to a location in what is today the Ukraine. This makes it very likely that the father of this line is most likely Moorish or a Spaniard of Moorish paternal descent, that introgressed this major Rabbinical line.

    The best assessment would be a medieval DNA assessment between Steppe samples and Italic Spaniard samples that predate the Reconquista, which I am pretty certain are going to have either no, or only minor, relatedness.
    Last edited by Unk Kadath; 09-02-2021 at 09:05 PM. Reason: bad formatting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unk Kadath View Post
    I have seen only one persons autosomal data first-hand IRL, which is difficult to draw any wide conclusions from, however I think that the primary obstacle to answering this interesting question accurately is that Italian / Rhine Valley "Ashkenazics" were not (historically) the same population autsomally as Eastern / Steppe "Ashkenazics".

    Creating an artificial 'lump-Ashkenazic' category throws bad data, from what I have seen. The Caucasus / Steppe population needs to be moved into a separate category, or you will over-assign Levantine origin - Also, studies that attempt to compare existing modern populations with an artificial autosomal composite, throw bad data, whereas comparing modern populations to ancient samples yields accurate data.



    This conclusion is anecdotally reinforced by what is probably good measurement offered by a Rabbinical lineage study that was created and assisted within the Rabbincal community, that tested 13 major Rabbinical lines -

    Five (5) of these are either certainly not of Levantine population origin, or highly unlikely to be, given that they are most common ancestries in Steppe / Caucasus peoples, Eight (8) of these are certainly Hg that can commonly be found among Levantine peoples, but most of which can also be found among Iranic, Turkic, Kurdish peoples.

    One of these lineages is interesting because it is V88 originating from (then) Muslim-controlled Spain, that later moves to a location in what is today the Ukraine. This makes it very likely that the father of this line is most likely Moorish or a Spaniard of Moorish paternal descent, that introgressed this major Rabbinical line.

    The best assessment would be a medieval DNA assessment between Steppe samples and Italic Spaniard samples that predate the Reconquista, which I am pretty certain are going to have either no, or only minor, relatedness.
    Please share which 5 you don't think are Levantine. Also, please expand on the eastern steppe Ashkenazics. And if you don't mind, please share why you think the clade in V88 was picked up in Muslim Spain.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: R-A11720, J-FGC21085, E-FGC56023

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Please share which 5 you don't think are Levantine. Also, please expand on the eastern steppe Ashkenazics. And if you don't mind, please share why you think the clade in V88 was picked up in Muslim Spain.
    Also, I don't know why he thinks it would have just moved to Ukraine when it is found in Ashkenazim from all over Central/Eastern Europe including Germany, the Netherlands, Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, and Belarus in addition to Ukraine. The closest non-Jewish clades are all from Arabia, the Southern Levant, and Sudan so where would the speculation of a Moorish origin come from?

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    Also, I don't know why he thinks it would have just moved to Ukraine when it is found in Ashkenazim from all over Central/Eastern Europe including Germany, the Netherlands, Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, and Belarus in addition to Ukraine. The closest non-Jewish clades are all from Arabia, the Southern Levant, and Sudan so where would the speculation of a Moorish origin come from?
    First of all.. I am not trying to insult or argue with anyone. I simply noted my conclusions of a study that interested me and which I had, fairly long ago, chanced upon. The point of this thread was an invitation to speculate on the topic, which I did based upon not mere whimsy, but a Rabbinical authorized study. My point was merely to note that even some portion of Sephardic or Italian/Rhine River Valley Ashkenazics are not going to necessarily be fully Levantine. If you disagree strongly, that is your right and I respect it.

    I am not playing into modern political or ethnic concerns, just a factor of probability. If significant instances of ancient Levantine V88 were showing up from the Temple era Levant, I would fully assert that the ancestry likely originates from that time and place, but there is no evidence that I am aware of to establish this conclusion.

    I am removing the name of this specific Rabbinical lineage from my reply because although they did apparently volunteer to make this data public, I do not want to dox them with an unwelcome opinion.

    Its extremely likely - if not guaranteed - that some amount of paternal SNP from Moorish Berber V88 tribal clans will in fact be found in modern Arabia and Sudan since we know for a fact that they interact significantly, both economically and militarily, with Berber tribesmen over a vast period of time during the Islamic expansion. You appear to me to attribute this as indication of actually originating from Temple-era Levantine populations, when I find no such probability.

    Two of the potential conclusions that could be drawn are that this line was incidentally V88, of Temple-era Levantine origin, and coincidentally ends up in Iberia, which is conquered and occupied by Moorish Berber tribes, who often bear V88, in the period that the Moors have total control over the region...

    Or you could conclude that an introgression from these occupying Moorish /Berber males or possibly a Spaniard of this paternal SNP, entered into the paternal lineage through an NPE, which is understandably not going to be a very welcome realization to anyone - The fact that this SNP is shared across other potentially Iberian origin families may indicate that these other families follow this line out of Spain, as they headed east, or to Holland, after the mass Expulsion.

    "It is also well-known that many major rabbinical families have a long-standing tradition that they descend from pre-Inquisition Spain and Portugal. The prominent Ashkenazi rabbinical Epstein family, for instance, claims descent from Spain. In this regard, the results of our previous Y-DNA study of the Katzenellenbogen rabbinical dynasty provided compelling genetic evidence that it, too, was most likely Sephardic in origin."
    "In addition to the phylogenetic evidence supporting Iberian ancestry based upon the R1b-V88 haplogroup marker, the STR results for the pedigreed T___ descendants provide additional supporting evidence of Iberian ancestry.

    "Recorded in the spellings of Zamora, Zamorrann, and Zamorrano, this famous Spanish surname derives from the ancient city of Zamora in Northwest Spain, a city founded by the invading Moors in the 12th century."

    The Iberian ethnic origin of the T____ dynasty, while intriguing, is not entirely unexpected, or without historical precedent. Sephardic Jewry, having been expelled from Spain, found different homes throughout Europe."
    I think that as supporting evidence, it would be conclusive to assess whether these other descendants mentioned below are in fact true patrilineal descendants of other children from this Moorish-Spain migrant lineage, which would point to what I suspect - an NPE. Since that NPE would only affect that one descendant, the other siblings would be expected to NOT match, which we see some potential for -

    "There are tens of thousands of T____ descendants widely dispersed throughout the world. Many of them are patrilineal descendants of the T____ dynasty, but many may have independently acquired the T____ surname and bear no genetic relationship to descendants of the T____ rabbinical family."
    Last edited by Unk Kadath; 09-09-2021 at 10:30 PM.

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    "Only E-Y6926 has a relatively recent sibling clade, with a UAE match with tmrca of 3100 ybp, but it's the only match with a country name on it, I'd prefer more than one, and UAE is not really in the Levant."

    Being "100% Ashkenazic" (according to FTDNA) and of the E-Y6926 lineage, I can answer that pretty definitively though not satisfying to those who wish for Levantine origins. Y6926 did not come from the Levant, though it definitely entered the Jewish line. My assessment is that it came from Anatolians who mixed with Jews as Jews passed north through Asia Minor in the early Diaspora. (And there were specific opportunities for that to happen.)

    Y6926 looks very Anatolian and our paternal ancestors in this line more likely built Catalhayuk than anything in Jerusalem -- which does not undercut any claim of Judean origins because Jews picked it up on their way from Judea in Roman times. The UAE samples actually confirm this because the people in UAE who carry Y6926 are not of Semitic origin. They are called "Baloch Arabs" but "Arabs here is a misnomer. They came from Baluchistan across the Persian Gulf, i.e. their homeland is in Pakistan and Iran. They likely acquired Y6926 when Alexander's armies swept through Anatolia and then conquered Baluchistan. Baluchistan continued to be ruled by the Seleucid Empire, based in Anatolia. Y6926 is missing in all "Levantine" groups including Palestinians, Druze, Lebanese, Jordanians, Iraqi and Yemeni Jews.

    This highlights the importance of distinguishing between "Middle Eastern," "Levantine," and "Judean." These are not at all the same thing. It is mythological that "Jews" -- the "Nation of Israel" -- derive from only two ancient tribes, those of Israel and Judah. In reality, many different groups were absorbed into the "Jewish people" and that included some Babylonians, remnants of the Phoenicians and Philistines, some Anatolians, Cypriots, and others. Looking for an Israeli territorial label on DNA is bound to disappoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeJaywalker View Post
    "Only E-Y6926 has a relatively recent sibling clade, with a UAE match with tmrca of 3100 ybp, but it's the only match with a country name on it, I'd prefer more than one, and UAE is not really in the Levant."

    Being "100% Ashkenazic" (according to FTDNA) and of the E-Y6926 lineage, I can answer that pretty definitively though not satisfying to those who wish for Levantine origins. Y6926 did not come from the Levant, though it definitely entered the Jewish line. My assessment is that it came from Anatolians who mixed with Jews as Jews passed north through Asia Minor in the early Diaspora. (And there were specific opportunities for that to happen.)

    Y6926 looks very Anatolian and our paternal ancestors in this line more likely built Catalhayuk than anything in Jerusalem -- which does not undercut any claim of Judean origins because Jews picked it up on their way from Judea in Roman times. The UAE samples actually confirm this because the people in UAE who carry Y6926 are not of Semitic origin. They are called "Baloch Arabs" but "Arabs here is a misnomer. They came from Baluchistan across the Persian Gulf, i.e. their homeland is in Pakistan and Iran. They likely acquired Y6926 when Alexander's armies swept through Anatolia and then conquered Baluchistan. Baluchistan continued to be ruled by the Seleucid Empire, based in Anatolia. Y6926 is missing in all "Levantine" groups including Palestinians, Druze, Lebanese, Jordanians, Iraqi and Yemeni Jews.

    This highlights the importance of distinguishing between "Middle Eastern," "Levantine," and "Judean." These are not at all the same thing. It is mythological that "Jews" -- the "Nation of Israel" -- derive from only two ancient tribes, those of Israel and Judah. In reality, many different groups were absorbed into the "Jewish people" and that included some Babylonians, remnants of the Phoenicians and Philistines, some Anatolians, Cypriots, and others. Looking for an Israeli territorial label on DNA is bound to disappoint.
    Hi LukeJaywalker,

    You are making some pretty bold claims about the origins of this clade. Bold claims require bold supporting evidence. Perhaps you could walk us through the genetic evidence that you believe supports an Anatolian origin. I’ll be honest, I don’t see ANY evidence to support your assertion of a probable Anatolian origin. The idea that many AJ clades originate in the ancient Israelites is also far from mythological. Shared origins in approximately 900-500 bce for a number of founding AJ clades shared across a number of distinct non-AJ Jewish subgroups demonstrates there was, at least in part, a common origin in Israelites.
    Last edited by MEurope55; 12-09-2021 at 06:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?
    Does this help?

    Capture.PNG

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